Being outclassed by another shooter

[Gregg]

I know this has only happened to about .343% of all AZers here, and even fewer who are willing to admit...but for the people who have played with shooters who at one point or another that outclassed them, how has it effected your game?

Did you want to quit? Make you focus more on your game? Decided to take some lessons?

Me, when this happens, it demonstrates how much more I have to learn and can improve and grow.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I know this has only happened to about .343% of all AZers here, and even fewer who are willing to admit...but for the people who have played with shooters who at one point or another that outclassed them, how has it effected your game?

Did you want to quit? Make you focus more on your game? Decided to take some lessons?

Me, when this happens, it demonstrates how much more I have to learn and can improve and grow.

YES. That happened to me BIG TIME.

For a stretch, I was playing Mika Immonen about every time I ran into him. I think he took notice in me because in a local tournament, he was beating me 7-1 and I came back to make it 7-6 then 8-7 before an odd scratch gave him the set. I was about a B-level player at the time and he was a professional player on the rise (2000, I believe) so the turn-around really got the room's attention even though I lost.

After that, down at Corner Billiards in New York City, we hooked-up on a tight-pocket table for a few sets of 9-ball. He won all five sets, races to 9 with a combined score of 45-3. No more than a few weeks later, at Amsterdam Billiards, he did something similar to me over the course of 3 sets, all races to 9.

Over those 8 sets, he had several 6-packs (runs of 6 consecutive racks). Oddly enough, he never ran more than 6 but evenso, it was the most impressive display I had ever seen anyone do. Packages are rare, even among professionals and to see a player consistently put together packages is almost unheard of.

I swear to you, the last time I played him, it depressed me to no end. To be playing your best pool yet feel helpless is something that I was not used to. Until then, even when I played the better amateurs in the area, I would still get chances. Even when I would say, "I had no chance", I had chances. Against Mika those days, I had no chance. After my last big beating, he went out and won The World Championship no more than a week later.

Oddly, that made me feel much better. I mean, he beat everybody so how could I feel bad? The next (and last) time we hooked-up, he won the first set 9-0, I won the second 9-8 and the third was something uneventful. I think he won 9-5. Yeah, that second set, I played perfect. I'll never forget that Finish-accent of his in complete disgust saying, "FLIP THE COIN!" as I pocketed the 8-ball to get position for a hanging 9.

I know, it's pool. It's 9-ball. Anything could happen, right? However, on that day, on that hour, I beat The World Champion with witnesses. After that, there wasn't a single person I was afraid of and not a single person I took for granted. No loss can depress me and no win will define me.

 

[Eric.]

I know this has only happened to about .343% of all AZers here, and even fewer who are willing to admit...but for the people who have played with shooters who at one point or another that outclassed them, how has it effected your game?

Did you want to quit? Make you focus more on your game? Decided to take some lessons?

Me, when this happens, it demonstrates how much more I have to learn and can improve and grow.

I think if you are trying to improve your game, it should happen on a regular basis. If you're beating up the same stiffs, over and over, your game won't get better. IMO, you should aways seek out the next level, take your lumps until you can beat all of them. Then repeat the process.


Eric

 

[bsmutz]

I'm not sure about your use of the word outclassed here (really hard for me to be outclassed, lol). If you really mean outplayed, then it happens almost every time I compete. Sometimes it's only for a game or two, but I guess it always has somewhat of a mental affect on me. Usually it makes me want to beat my opponent worse than he beat me. Sometimes I can shrug it off. Not much you can do in a one game do or die league match or a race to two tournament except reflect on any mistakes you made and try to correct them in practice. So if I figure never to see my opponent again or only rarely, it's not as damaging to my ego as it is with someone I see all the time or play with regularly. I'm not a quitter, but if I don't have the time for a comeback or at least make a statement, I'm willing to swallow the bitter pill and admit that on that night at that time, so and so was the better player.

 

[Gregg]

I think if you are trying to improve your game, it should happen on a regular basis. If you're beating up the same stiffs, over and over, your game won't get better. IMO, you should aways seek out the next level, take your lumps until you can beat all of them. Then repeat the process.


Eric

I think this is along the lines of what I'm thinking. Sometimes that helpless feeling of playing your best pool and not having a chance to win can really push a player up to a new plateau, if they view losing as an opportunity to improve.

 

[Eric.]

I think this is along the lines of what I'm thinking. Sometimes that helpless feeling of playing your best pool and not having a chance to win can really push a player up to a new plateau, if they view losing as an opportunity to improve.

There's always a way to win (unless he's running out the set ). IMO, watch what your opponent does when faced with a situation. You already know what you'd do, compare notes with his strategy. You might learn something or find a better way.

Good players seem to have many ways of beating you and it isn't always pure offense. There are a lot of subtleties like being aware of a missable shot and protecting the CB. For example, if you have a combo on the 9 ball, don't just concentrate on trying to make the combo, also think about hiding the CB from the OB in case of a miss. That is one example of playing the shot for the best possible outcome and getting the absolute most you can from that situation.


Eric

 

[Snapshot9]

Well ...

I think if you are trying to improve your game, it should happen on a regular basis. If you're beating up the same stiffs, over and over, your game won't get better. IMO, you should aways seek out the next level, take your lumps until you can beat all of them. Then repeat the process.


Eric

that type of thinking has a FATAL flaw in it. The good players play for money, and usually not cheap, and most people have to eat on a daily basis...lol

 

[Maniac]

Gregg,

As a player in an APA 8-ball and 9-ball league, I am frequently on the wrong side of a good butt-whippin'!! I see many shooters in both leagues that are way more than a notch above my pool playing capabilities. Does it effect me when I get my head handed to me in a match by one of these shooters? Yes, somewhat. Usually it's because of the shots in the match that I should have made and missed that get to me. It makes me go home to the table and work on the missed shots to try to analyze just went wrong and what steps I need to take to correct it. I would rather shoot my game and lose to a better player than to shoot like crap and get beat by anyone.

On that note I must confess that the winning and losing part of any endeavor that I choose has never been a factor in why I do it. I shoot pool simply for the love of the game. I have played on championship softball teams (hell, once I got a tournament MVP trophy) and I have played on softball teams that sucked big-time. I have won two bass fishing tournaments and have had days where I went fishless. I've won a plaque for Hi-Power Rifleshooter of the Year at our local shootin' range for match shooting. I've been on both sides of the winning/losing game. You gotta take the bad with the good in life. Remember how good you felt when you handed an opponents head to him/her on a given night? Well, there's gonna be a trade-off for that somewhere down the road.

One of the reasons it doesn't bother me a lot to get beat by a better player is that I have the realization that at 53 years of age, I'm just not gonna get a lot better than I am right now. I (being right-handed) have had rotator cuff surgery on my right shoulder (the muscle was doubled over and sewn together thus limiting my range-of-motion), currently have adhesive capsulation ("frozen shoulder") on my left side, have chronic back spasms, and not to mention a belly that prevents me from bending over the table as low and far as I would like (along with the bad shoulder). Yes, I could lose the belly, but I ain't givin' up bacon, cheese, milk, butter and all the other good foods out there for nothin' ! There's a lot of shots that come up in any particular game that I have a physical problem trying to pull off. It's very hard for me to "jack-up" on a shot and reaching anywhere past the side pocket to strike the cue ball is a real chore (and a little painful too). On top of this is my eyesight, which to say in the least is poor. I hafta shoot wearing reading glasses just so I can make out the edges of the balls.

I know you weren't looking for my medical report when you made your OP, but I'm just trying to convey to you here to not let getting beat by a better player get you down. I don't care who you are (with a few exceptions), there's always gonna be a better pool player out there somewhere and the law of averages says you're gonna hafta play him/her somewhere down the road. Cheer up, enjoy the game. You're gonna have your share of "glory days" !!! Good luck and better shootin' !!!

Maniac

 

[Eric.]

that type of thinking has a FATAL flaw in it. The good players play for money, and usually not cheap, and most people have to eat on a daily basis...lol

Ya know, Scott? You always try to come across as a know-it-all but usually expose your naivete. I'm surprised you didn't fall back again on your age as a credential for knowledge Like most things in life, there are other ways.

You don't have to gamble til your busted. Some players will play cheap. Hell, I've played a cheap set with Efren and will do it again when the chance comes up. FWIW, it only cost me $50 and I was taking notes. Well worth it. You can enter a regional tour stop, enter for $70, $80, $100 or so and possibly play a world beater. You don't have to play the better player every day to improve. After your beating, make note of what you need to improve, take note of what he did better and go practice. After you improve thru practice, go back and see what else needs work. Make sense?


Eric

 

[ScottW]

I'm not a banger by any means, but there are tons of shooters out there who just wipe the floor with me.

But I don't let it get me down - if anything, it makes me want to get better, so I can return the favor

 

[Andrew Manning]

It doesn't bother me to lose if I play decently, and the other shooter plays better than my ability. However, if I shoot badly and/or my opponent plays at a level that I can beat when I'm on my game, that really frustrates me a lot. I know I can't expect my best game to come out in every match, but I haven't figured out how not to take it hard when I lose by playing below my ability level.

But I love to play better players than myself, win or lose, as long as I play well. It doesn't bother me to shoot my best game and get beaten by someone whose best game is superior. It gives me something to aspire to.

-Andrew

 

[uwate]

This happens to me just about every time I get into a tournament with an entry above $25.00. For me its one of the hardest things to not let my mind wander to the fact that i am playing someone who plays better than I do.

I have played my best pool against real champions when I do not know who they are.

I should stop looking at the brackets I guess and ignore the names when they call my match. Easier said than done.

 

[MasterRacker]

In rock climbing (since you have a belayer on a rope to catch you) the conventional wisdom is if you don't actually fall, you're not pushing hard enough. The point being not to simply push your level of competence but to actually exceed it to get better.

We all get run over once in a while (unless your name is Efren ). There have been plenty of times I've had to pull someone's boot out of my ass and hand it back to them with a smile. The thing that keeps me coming back is that once in a while it's my boot.

Like some others mentioned, the thing that gets me down is losing because I played like crap. If I feel like I played really well and someone squashed me anyway, I don't feel too bad about it.

 

[Aaron_S]

It doesn't bother me to lose if I play decently, and the other shooter plays better than my ability. However, if I shoot badly and/or my opponent plays at a level that I can beat when I'm on my game, that really frustrates me a lot. I know I can't expect my best game to come out in every match, but I haven't figured out how not to take it hard when I lose by playing below my ability level.

But I love to play better players than myself, win or lose, as long as I play well. It doesn't bother me to shoot my best game and get beaten by someone whose best game is superior. It gives me something to aspire to.

-Andrew

Ditto.

I do know some, however, that would probably get pissed if they lost playing one-on-one with MJ, or 18 with Tiger. There is definitely such a thing as being too competitive.

 

[wahcheck]

Cory did it?

Ya know, Scott? You always try to come across as a know-it-all but usually expose your naivete. I'm surprised you didn't fall back again on your age as a credential for knowledge Like most things in life, there are other ways.

You don't have to gamble til your busted. Some players will play cheap. Hell, I've played a cheap set with Efren and will do it again when the chance comes up. FWIW, it only cost me $50 and I was taking notes. Well worth it. You can enter a regional tour stop, enter for $70, $80, $100 or so and possibly play a world beater. You don't have to play the better player every day to improve. After your beating, make note of what you need to improve, take note of what he did better and go practice. After you improve thru practice, go back and see what else needs work. Make sense?


Eric

This post reminded me of a post by Grady (I think) where he said Cory Duell asked him how he could get better at shooting pool; and Grady said, "Take a thousand dollars, go and ask Efren to play some $100 sets." Not sure if he did that, but if so, the results are hard to argue with....

 

[Cameron Smith]

I was playing 9 ball with someone not long ago. He wasn't a great player, but that day he was. He beat me something like 7-1. He played perfect safeties and ran out whenever I made a mistake. I was absolutely paralyzed there was nothing to do.

Realizing that 9 ball is not my best game, and that it would be foolish to continue with that game, I suggested some 14.1. After some seasawing, we were level at 10-12 in my favor, I ran 10 safety, 14 safety, 34 and then 32 and out. I won 100-12 after being crushed in 9 ball.

The moral of the story is that sometimes you have to realize when your opponent is just gonna keep beating you, and look for an advantage. In this case I switched to one of my better games. If that didn't work I would have try to move him to the snooker table.

 

[ajrack]

Outclassed

Way back when I was just starting out, I really thought I could play some pretty good 14.1. I could run 40's and 50's fairly often. I played a guy in Houston some 14.1 for $50 per game to 125 points. I ran 88 right out of the box...he said "nice run" and proceeded to run all 125!!! That's getting outclassed!

 

[SUPERSTAR]

I know this has only happened to about .343% of all AZers here, and even fewer who are willing to admit...but for the people who have played with shooters who at one point or another that outclassed them, how has it effected your game?

Um, i don't know about .343%, but believe me when i tell you, i was ABUSED!
If i do say so myself, even when i thought was playing pretty solid, i was the proverbial TOMATO CAN!

I can't begin to tell you how many times i played PERFECT pool, and still got crushed.
There was a time where i drew BUSTI where the ONLY 2 shots i got were the LAG, which i lost by like 3 millimeters, and the greatest saftey of my life after his 5 pack finally ending when he came up dry on the break and i had no shot, which after looking at it for like 5 minutes, he promptly did this ridiculous Masse around the ball that was really just a crack shot in the dark, made a good hit, and i watched as he lucked the ball in and ran out the set for me to get the big donut with me getting one chance at the table when i played the saftey. A 2 inning set for him. I think i must have driven 3 cars off the road on the way home from THAT one.
Then there was Ralf Souquet's 2 inning set on me, where i actually ran a 4 pack.
Then there were the times where Efren would be in town, and he'd be in the local tournament, and me like an idiot would try and safe him out. Only to have my great safety's flipped on me with his KICKS to end up more locked up then i could have managed with ball in hand. Plus lets not forget his making all sorts of IMPOSSIBLE shots from all over the place that would leave your jaw hanging, wondering if he was really a JEDI that was making the balls with the aid of the force. THAT GUY is a friggin ALIEN as far as i'm concerned.

What did all this abuse eventually do? It forced the desire into my head and gave me a perspective which hadn't really been there before.
It made me realize that i needed to do better if i wanted to compete. So i practiced and practiced, and then it got to the point where i actually started to win the occasional match with these guys. That got me thinking that if i could beat these guys every now and then, Why on earth would i ever be afraid of anyone again. I mean i might start dogging my brains out if i didn't FEEL right or i might play like crap, but there was no way that anyone was ever gonna intimidate me ever again. I might lose, but i knew that if i played my game the way i know that i'm capable of, that anything was possible. Even torturing the occasional name in a huge way.
Don't let me draw some shlep in the tournament cause most likely i will lose knowing me. But give me a crack at that guy who's face is on every magazine, and believe me, i'm gonna be all sorts of pumped up and be trying my best to get him to say to himself, "what the hell planet is THIS guy from!"

All due to the people that outclassed me and humiliated at every opportunity.

 

[mjantti]

I don't mind being outclasses as long as I can perform and play my game. One time in an 8-ball tournament I matched up against a good player from Finland. I won the lag, broke dry and he ran 1+6 to lead 7-0 and he broke dry. I ran 1+1 and broke dry, he ran out to win the set 8-2. No mistakes from either player. Can't be too unhappy with that if a guy puts a seven-pack on me and I don't make a single mistake there assuming breaking up dry is not a mistake. If my opponent outclasses me and plays perfect or almost perfect pool, he deserves to win, no hard feelings from me...

 

[Williebetmore]

but for the people who have played with shooters who at one point or another that outclassed them, how has it effected your game?

G-man,
I have been playing regularly with some pro's for the past 4 years (just started pool 4 1/2 years ago). It is a great way to hone your racking skills. It is a GREAT way to learn how the game should/can be played, and to learn what is possible on the table. I'm not sure though, that your game will automatically improve, just by donating money to the pro's. Unless you can access their thoughts, you will not be sure WHY they are doing what they are doing.

I've used the matches as motivation to take lessons, and get better. If it discourages a player; he should quit the game altogether; because it is supposed to be FUN to play the champions - there are not a lot of sports/games where this is possible.

P.S. - Perhaps you should pose this question to breakup after the 2007 DCC "Grudge Match" if he's not crying uncontrollably.