Bending a bank shot

pool101

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This was brought up a year and a half ago, http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=420354
I posted some video and a conversation followed which resulted in Dr Daves Bank Bend Challenge.
I recently got a newer program that allowed me to overlay ghost balls and place lines on the video. While this new video does not meet the challenge It does show that more then a little bend is possible.
I only did one camera angle on one shot but you can see about 3/4 inch of bend IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToAqwHIlZNI
Mark
 
Load that puppy up with english!!!

I remember having a conversation with instructors at "Pool School" in chicago about transferring english to object balls years ago. "They" didn't believe it was possible at the time. Clearly not bankers....... Doc
 
This was brought up a year and a half ago, http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=420354
I posted some video and a conversation followed which resulted in Dr Daves Bank Bend Challenge.
I recently got a newer program that allowed me to overlay ghost balls and place lines on the video. While this new video does not meet the challenge It does show that more then a little bend is possible.
I only did one camera angle on one shot but you can see about 3/4 inch of bend IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToAqwHIlZNI
Mark
For those interested, lots of info and video demos involving bending banks can be found the the bending a bank resource page.

And for those interested, here is the $2000 Bank Bend Challenge.

Regards,
Dave

PS: The ball is obviously bending in the video you have posted, but I don't think it is bending quite as much as your line suggests. The OB compresses and slides down the cushion some during rebound, so you should wait for the OB to leave the cushion before drawing the line.
 
For those interested, lots of info and video demos involving bending banks can be found the the bending a bank resource page.

And for those interested, here is the $2000 Bank Bend Challenge.

Regards,
Dave

PS: The ball is obviously bending in the video you have posted, but I don't think it is bending quite as much as your line suggests. The OB compresses and slides down the cushion some during rebound, so you should wait for the OB to leave the cushion before drawing the line.
I did, the line is after the the ball leaves the rail!
 
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not trying to sidetrack this thread
but teachmepool dvds have a TON of knowledge on them and should be bought and studied by anyone wishing to improve
they were a TREMENDOUS help to me
thank you mark.....:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
not trying to sidetrack this thread
but teachmepool dvds have a TON of knowledge on them and should be bought and studied by anyone wishing to improve
they were a TREMENDOUS help to me
thank you mark.....:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Thanks Larry.
 
For those interested, lots of info and video demos involving bending banks can be found the the bending a bank resource page.

And for those interested, here is the $2000 Bank Bend Challenge.

Regards,
Dave

PS: The ball is obviously bending in the video you have posted, but I don't think it is bending quite as much as your line suggests. The OB compresses and slides down the cushion some during rebound, so you should wait for the OB to leave the cushion before drawing the line.
Dave, I just did the same thing with the video from a camera on the other side.
Both of these are using the same footage I did a year and a half ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJqn8IpZBAU
 
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This was brought up a year and a half ago, http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=420354
I posted some video and a conversation followed which resulted in Dr Daves Bank Bend Challenge.
I recently got a newer program that allowed me to overlay ghost balls and place lines on the video. While this new video does not meet the challenge It does show that more then a little bend is possible.
I only did one camera angle on one shot but you can see about 3/4 inch of bend IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToAqwHIlZNI
Mark

Very nice. Wouldn't a short rail bank be more conclusive?
 
I did, the line is after the the ball leaves the rail!

I think Dr. Dave was right, your line is not on the edge of the ball at the moment that it leaves the rail and while your ball obviously bends it is only by about half the amount that is suggested by your video because of the inaccurate line placement. Go to about 14 seconds into your video, where it appears that you froze the seven ball just about at the moment it comes off the rail and you can clearly see that your line is not on the edge of the seven ball and is actually about 3/8th inch or so away from the edge.
 
I think Dr. Dave was right, your line is not on the edge of the ball at the moment that it leaves the rail and while your ball obviously bends it is only by about half the amount that is suggested by your video because of the inaccurate line placement. Go to about 14 seconds into your video, where it appears that you froze the seven ball just about at the moment it comes off the rail and you can clearly see that your line is not on the edge of the seven ball and is actually about 3/8th inch or so away from the edge.

Same shot from the other side, look at 30 seconds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJqn8IpZBAU
 
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Same shot from the other side, look at 30 seconds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJqn8IpZBAU
Again, I think your line is misleading as a result of some of the effects described in the following video:

NV H.3 - Pool Myth Buster - Bending Bank Shots

Here's an image from your video where the OB appears to first land on the table after rebounding off the cushion and jumping into the air:

bank_bend_video_frame.jpg

No bending can take place while the OB is in the air, so this position might better reflect the original post-rebound line of the shot. In your video, there are not enough video frames during and immediately after cushion rebound to confidently know the line at which the OB is coming off the cushion. And while the OB is airborne, the camera angle can create a false impression of the line (as discussed in my video above).

If you decide to try and record more bank bend shots in the future, I encourage you to use the shot setup and procedure described in the $2000 Bank Bend Challenge, where there is no chance for video perception issues.

Regards,
Dave
 
Again, I think your line is misleading as a result of some of the effects described in the following video:

NV H.3 - Pool Myth Buster - Bending Bank Shots

Here's an image from your video where the OB appears to first land on the table after rebounding off the cushion and jumping into the air:

View attachment 476431

No bending can take place while the OB is in the air, so this position might better reflect the original post-rebound line of the shot. In your video, there are not enough video frames during and immediately after cushion rebound to confidently know the line at which the OB is coming off the cushion. And while the OB is airborne, the camera angle can create a false impression of the line (as discussed in my video above).

If you decide to try and record more bank bend shots in the future, I encourage you to use the shot setup and procedure described in the $2000 Bank Bend Challenge, where there is no chance for video perception issues.

Regards,
Dave
Is see it as this,
1) Was there a ball in the way of the the natural bank from the point it left the rail? Yes.
2) Did I bank the ball "Around" the impeding ball? Yes
3) Did the ball jump over the impeding ball? No
Did the ball change direction from the original line? yes
 
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Again, I think your line is misleading as a result of some of the effects described in the following video:

NV H.3 - Pool Myth Buster - Bending Bank Shots

Here's an image from your video where the OB appears to first land on the table after rebounding off the cushion and jumping into the air:

View attachment 476431

No bending can take place while the OB is in the air, so this position might better reflect the original post-rebound line of the shot. In your video, there are not enough video frames during and immediately after cushion rebound to confidently know the line at which the OB is coming off the cushion. And while the OB is airborne, the camera angle can create a false impression of the line (as discussed in my video above).

If you decide to try and record more bank bend shots in the future, I encourage you to use the shot setup and procedure described in the $2000 Bank Bend Challenge, where there is no chance for video perception issues.
Is see it as this,
1) Was there a ball in the way of the the natural bank from the point it left the rail?
Again, per the explanations in my post above, it is not clear where the ball leaves the cushion. You would need to capture a video frame where the ball is fully compressed into the cushion to know an accurate reference position and line off the rail (or locate where the OB first lands, as I showed above). The limited video frames and camera angle in your video are potentially misleading (as I describe in my bank bend myth video). With your ball setup, there appears to be plenty of room for a straight bank to clear both the 6 and 4. I'm not saying your banked ball is not bending, but I am sure it is not bending as much as you seem to be suggesting.

Here's the best legitimate bank bend video I've seen to date (from the bank bend resource page), where the camera is well positioned to best see the bend without possible perception issues. That bank is clearly bending, and by a significant amount.

Regards,
Dave
 
Same shot from the other side, look at 30 seconds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJqn8IpZBAU

I went to the 30 second mark in your video above and once again it is crystal clear that you are not putting the line on the edge of the ball, except that this time your line is noticeably off on both sides of the table, not just one. On the side closest to us where the seven is banking off the rail, the line is off the edge of the ball by about 1/8 inch or so, and on the far side where it is about to enter the pocket your line is off the ball at least 1/4th inch. I don't want to think that you are doing this intentionally in an effort to mislead people so I have to guess that maybe you are subconsciously "fudging" your line placements to exaggerate the effects and this kind of subconscious bias is notoriously difficult for most people to be free of influence from. If you look at the still shots in both videos though it is crystal clear that you line is in fact off the ball a substantial amount.

The other issue as Dr. Dave pointed out in post #13 is that based on the way you set up your shot, and your equipment which isn't capable of recording at a high enough frames per second count, it is impossible to tell precisely where the seven ball is as it comes off the rail. Where the seven first hits the table after rebounding in the air suggests that it could have come off the rail even further down that your freeze frames show, in which case your lines would be even further off from the true path than they are now and they are already significantly off. To allow for more precision you should set up the shot per the guidelines the Dr. Dave laid out in the no longer open bank bend challenge, and in the mean time you have got to learn how to put those lines up against the edge of the ball and not significantly away from the ball which really shouldn't be all that hard if someone is trying their hardest to be both precise and honest.
 
I went to the 30 second mark in your video above and once again it is crystal clear that you are not putting the line on the edge of the ball, except that this time your line is noticeably off on both sides of the table, not just one. On the side closest to us where the seven is banking off the rail, the line is off the edge of the ball by about 1/8 inch or so, and on the far side where it is about to enter the pocket your line is off the ball at least 1/4th inch. I don't want to think that you are doing this intentionally in an effort to mislead people so I have to guess that maybe you are subconsciously "fudging" your line placements to exaggerate the effects and this kind of subconscious bias is notoriously difficult for most people to be free of influence from. If you look at the still shots in both videos though it is crystal clear that you line is in fact off the ball a substantial amount.

The other issue as Dr. Dave pointed out in post #13 is that based on the way you set up your shot, and your equipment which isn't capable of recording at a high enough frames per second count, it is impossible to tell precisely where the seven ball is as it comes off the rail. Where the seven first hits the table after rebounding in the air suggests that it could have come off the rail even further down that your freeze frames show, in which case your lines would be even further off from the true path than they are now and they are already significantly off. To allow for more precision you should set up the shot per the guidelines the Dr. Dave laid out in the no longer open bank bend challenge, and in the mean time you have got to learn how to put those lines up against the edge of the ball and not significantly away from the ball which really shouldn't be all that hard if someone is trying their hardest to be both precise and honest.
Here is the line exactly on edge of the ball in both positions. http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=476444&stc=1&d=1511290482
 

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I don't mean to keep picking on you, but the problem with this image is that the 7 is airborne and your camera is looking at the line of the shot from the left. This makes it look like the 7 is farther to the right than it actually is. I hope that makes sense. Again, the actual line of the bank is much straighter (with less bend) than your slow-frame-rate still images and line suggest.

Regards,
Dave
 

Your lines now look good and are on the edges of the ball instead of significantly off in space.

As Dr. Dave pointed out in post #18, there are still a couple of optical illusions happening here because the ball is airborne, and because we are off to the left of the line of the shot instead looking directly down the line of the shot.

I think I can add to what Dr. Dave said in post #18 to help you visualize what he is talking about. First, imagine that your photo in post #17 is not a photo at all, but is what you are seeing in person because your eyeballs are in exactly the same spot as the camera was. Now also imagine that all the motion was frozen in time exactly as you see in your picture, and the seven ball is levitating motionless in mid air just as you see in the picture as you are looking at the table. To visualize what Dr. Dave is talking when he says that the seven being airborne creates an illusion, imagine that without moving your head you reach out and push the levitating seven ball straight back down onto the table. It would no longer be touching your yellow line. If for some reason you are still not able to visualize that, then imagine the opposite. Imagine that without moving your head that you reach out and raise the seven ball straight up a full ball width higher that it is now. You will see that the yellow "string" would then be very significantly over the seven ball, probably about cutting it in half, yet we didn't do anything but raise the seven ball straight up and down. If you move the seven ball up, it will appear to move closer to the line, and if you move it down it will appear to move further from the line. In this case the seven is airborne so it looks like it is touching the yellow line when it really isn't and if you were to "push the seven ball down" you would see that the line is not actually on the edge of the ball.

To visualize what Dr. Dave is talking about when he says that being filmed from the left creates also creates an optical illusion, again imagine this is you in person looking at all the balls frozen in space, with the seven ball levitating in space just as it appears in the photo, and then also imagine that your yellow line is actually a yellow piece of yarn that is also levitating in space. Now imagine moving your head to the right until you are looking directly down the line of the yellow piece of yarn. As you moved your head to the right, the yellow levitating yarn would appear to be moving to the left off of the edge of the four ball, and by the time your head is directly in line with the piece of yellow yarn you will see that the piece of yarn actually isn't above any part of the four ball at all but is actually just off to the side of it. It is just that when you were looking from the left, the same angle as your picture, it just appeared to be over the four ball from that angle when it actually wasn't. Filming from an angle like this creates substantial optical illusions and doesn't allow for much accuracy. For the most precision in the future for this kind of shot you want to try to get your cameras looking exactly down the line of the shot (and exactly down the line of where your yellow line will end up being) and not off to the side even a little bit because even a little bit leads to significant optical illusions and inaccuracy.

Then you also still have what Dr. Dave pointed out in post #13. We simply don't have enough frames to accurately know where the seven was as it came off the rail as the frame or frames that would accurately show this simply don't exist. We do however have what appears to be a frame showing fairly precisely where the seven first hit the table after being airborne from the rebound. Since this is the first place we can accurately determine where the seven ball was, for the most accuracy you should have drawn your line from the edge of the seven ball at the place where it first hit the table on over to the edge of the seven ball as it is just about to drop into the pocket. This isn't perfectly accurate either, but it would be the most accurate based on the video we have to work with because trying to guess precisely where the seven ball left the rail was just that, a guess (we are missing the frames showing it, and the seven immediately going airborne from the rail makes it even harder to precisely guesstimate where it happened) . For the very best accuracy though you have to video that was shot from perfectly in line with the line of the shot and not even slightly from the side, you need a seven that doesn't start going airborne from the rail, and you need the frames that precisely show exactly where the seven was as it leaves the rail which would likely require a higher frame per second camera. All told it appears that you got a little curve with your shot, but probably only about an 1/8th inch or so, possibly 1/4 inch, and it also appears that with where you located the four ball the bank was very possible without any curve being needed at all (although it was fairly tight for sure).
 
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