Best Cue Joint?

Michael Webb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
More research, more answers from AZB.

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2432532

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=157789

It seems it's something like 7.634 TPI for the Uniloc. Some say Schmelke's is incompatible with "standard" Uniloc.

Doesn't really matter to me, I'm not planning on interchanging these pieces with anything. And if I need a replacement or spare or alternate shaft, I'll get it from Schmelke, anyway.

Thanks all!

The good part is, even if you did switch to an after market shaft, I believe Schmelke sells the 3/8x8 tap. The inside joke is. I'm to nice to say it. But welcome to AZ.
 

jimmyco

NRA4Life
Gold Member
Silver Member
I’ve read this before and understand that lack of collars can lead to the wood splitting but let’s say one is very careful with their stick and there is a strong epoxy finish on the cue, would it still be risky without collars? I always liked the true sneaky look and wondered if it was worth the risk not having collars?

Is it possible to make a maple colored phenolic collar?

Or for a genuine look, a phenolic collar sleeved with a true maple collar?
 

jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is it possible to make a maple colored phenolic collar?

Or for a genuine look, a phenolic collar sleeved with a true maple collar?

From what I've read about Dave Schmelke, if your cue splits I bet he'll replace it.
 

Michael Webb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is it possible to make a maple colored phenolic collar?

Or for a genuine look, a phenolic collar sleeved with a true maple collar?

For a true sneaky look. I would just do a 1/2x13 phenolic plug in both pieces. The butt end, at least 3/4" deep to absorb impact at the joint. The shaft, 1 1/2" deep.
 

wagdad

Yup, I'm that Guy.
Silver Member
Best cue joint

I've played with almost every joint pin configuration out there except for MEZZ. I can certainly tell the difference in a 5/16x14 piloted to a Uni Loc, to a wood to wood flat face joint. I personally have found, a piloted joint, especially piloted ivory joints have a major tendency to loosen up especially when breaking and shooting with that particular joint configuration. Accuracy also goes down when applying more force on my stroke with small pin piloted or non piloted joints. Example wood be a 5/16x14 non piloted, but it did have a brass insert in the shafts. I will say this about piloted joints, for me, the Uni Loc has felt the most solid of the piloted joints I've tried. Minus the 3/8x10 piloted, and piloted radial pin. I havent used those. So far with all the joints and pins I've used, 3/8x10 standard or modified have proven to be the most reliable, and accurate, when force is applied joint pin, usually flat faced. And I cant forget to mention, flat faced Uni Loc Radial, second in line to the 3/8x10 for me. Small pin piloted or non piloted, for soft strokers, large pin flat faced for punchier strokes. Hope that helps some of the newer players that come to this site to learn from us older more experienced players. A lot of folks on here forget it's ok to be nice and helpful instead of "flexing" their knowledge and trying to make others look or feel foolish for asking about something they dont have experience in. Good day to all, I said GOOD DAY!
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Everyone Has An Opinion.......But Everyone Can’t Be Right Either.

:cool:k
You won't feel a difference in hit, although you might imagine that you do.

What Bob said about joints that come loose is a good call, although I don't really know which types are best and worst for that.

Joint weight will make a slight difference in balance point, which can make a cue feel very slightly different in your hand. A steel joint will move the balance further forward than a wood-wood one. Where you like your balance point is 100% preference though; it won't make an objective performance difference




Just an aside observation but you won’t feel a difference in hit although you might
imagine you do is quixotic. What the mind imagines the body reacts to. If you think
there is any difference, how do you disprove it? Tactile feel is totally subjective and
people like to refer to some old blindfold test done a long time ago that didn’t confirm
nor deny much. Talk with great names in cue making and see what they say, not just
someone building cues that hasn’t attained the admiration of their peers in cue making.

Yes, everyone has their opinion and sometimes it is based on fact, sometimes on what
they believe and other times supported by their own experiences. But the nature of what
you posed says their experience truly doesn’t matter because it is imagined and not real.

So if they imagine there’s a difference in feel, sense it in their grip, it is all fakery because
it is not true. Well, hate to tell you this but there is a difference and I put my money where
my mouth goes on that point which is why I collected 1/2 dozen flat ivory jointed pool cues.
In other words, I really do talk the walk and walk the talk involving differences in cue joints.
 

Geosnooker

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don’t know.

My cue is all wood joint including the pin. Played with it most days for 14 years. Joint is as good as new.

The craftsmanship is likely the principal variable regardless of the pin configuration. Also, wood is a natural product so even the best made cue might reveal a flaw that was not predictable.

I have never made a pool cue but have made guitar necks. Every so often there is a dud. I like To use Canadian maple mostly because it’s readily available but also because it is dependable. Even then, Mother Nature throws a curve ball.

A skilled cue maker Is an artisan and will stand behind their cue.
 
If the joint is solidly constructed, it will not affect play.

After that, the questions to ask are: Will it last? Will it be easy to use? Will it have mechanical problems?

I have had two joints from very well-known cue makers that went bad. One came partly loose and the other tightened up so that it was a struggle to get the cue together -- sandpaper came to the rescue.

I've seen multiple joints that just didn't stay tight and at some point they would start clicking. If you see a player with the habit of tightening his cue every few racks, you might ask him what kind of joint he has and then get something else.

If the joint type does not affect the feel of the hit, then why is it that 3/8x10 (Mcdermott, for example) joints have a much softer hit then piloted 5/16x14 joint cues (Joss, Schon), which have a harder, and stiffer hit, in my opinion?

Wood to Wood joints (3/8x10, and Radial pin) always seemed to have a very solid, but much softer hit then any other cues that I have ever played with.

I understand that the taper of the shaft makes a difference too, like Schon cues have a much stiffer taper, so that is why they give a stiffer hit.

I still feel that the type of joint does play a role in how a cue hits.
 
If you're not going to have collars, go with 5/16 18 with brass insert.

There is no epoxy on the shaft with wood threads and no collar. That's the piece that is susceptible to splitting along the grain.

How about the type of insert that Huebler used on his cues? Would using an insert like that strengthen the joint, and make it possible to not need joint collars, for a true hustler sneaky pete? I loved the way the Huebler sneaky hit.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've played with almost every joint pin configuration out there except for MEZZ. I can certainly tell the difference in a 5/16x14 piloted to a Uni Loc, to a wood to wood flat face joint. I personally have found, a piloted joint, especially piloted ivory joints have a major tendency to loosen up especially when breaking and shooting with that particular joint configuration. Accuracy also goes down when applying more force on my stroke with small pin piloted or non piloted joints. Example wood be a 5/16x14 non piloted, but it did have a brass insert in the shafts. I will say this about piloted joints, for me, the Uni Loc has felt the most solid of the piloted joints I've tried. Minus the 3/8x10 piloted, and piloted radial pin. I havent used those. So far with all the joints and pins I've used, 3/8x10 standard or modified have proven to be the most reliable, and accurate, when force is applied joint pin, usually flat faced. And I cant forget to mention, flat faced Uni Loc Radial, second in line to the 3/8x10 for me. Small pin piloted or non piloted, for soft strokers, large pin flat faced for punchier strokes. Hope that helps some of the newer players that come to this site to learn from us older more experienced players. A lot of folks on here forget it's ok to be nice and helpful instead of "flexing" their knowledge and trying to make others look or feel foolish for asking about something they dont have experience in. Good day to all, I said GOOD DAY!
No offense but what you just stated is nothing but feels and guesses. There is no real data backing up any of this joint-vs-joint stuff. Blind tests have been done where players were unable to tell them apart. How could accuracy be affected by the joint?
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
I've played with almost every joint pin configuration out there except for MEZZ. I can certainly tell the difference in a 5/16x14 piloted to a Uni Loc, to a wood to wood flat face joint. I personally have found, a piloted joint, especially piloted ivory joints have a major tendency to loosen up especially when breaking and shooting with that particular joint configuration. Accuracy also goes down when applying more force on my stroke with small pin piloted or non piloted joints. Example wood be a 5/16x14 non piloted, but it did have a brass insert in the shafts. I will say this about piloted joints, for me, the Uni Loc has felt the most solid of the piloted joints I've tried. Minus the 3/8x10 piloted, and piloted radial pin. I havent used those. So far with all the joints and pins I've used, 3/8x10 standard or modified have proven to be the most reliable, and accurate, when force is applied joint pin, usually flat faced. And I cant forget to mention, flat faced Uni Loc Radial, second in line to the 3/8x10 for me. Small pin piloted or non piloted, for soft strokers, large pin flat faced for punchier strokes. Hope that helps some of the newer players that come to this site to learn from us older more experienced players. A lot of folks on here forget it's ok to be nice and helpful instead of "flexing" their knowledge and trying to make others look or feel foolish for asking about something they dont have experience in. Good day to all, I said GOOD DAY!

There is zero evidence that the type of joint pin affects accuracy. And if you stop and think about it for a minute, and ask yourself how on earth the type of joint pin could have an effect on accuracy, it becomes apparent how ludicrous that belief is. But things that don't on the surface seem logical or intuitive can sometimes be true, fair enough, but to justify a belief the majority of the evidence has to support that belief, and it just doesn't in this case--at all.

The idea of certain joint styles being better for certain "types of strokes" is equally ludicrous.

As far as the joint affecting the hit, pretty much the same thing. Many think they can tell the difference, but blind testing has shown that they can't. But how can it possibly be that what I think I can feel could be wrong? Humans are notoriously vulnerable to false perceptions and placebo effects etc. We all tend to see ourselves as the exception who don't have these vulnerabilities, and that our perceptions are actually what is real because we are careful about them, but again, when it comes to cue joints, the testing just hasn't bore that out and in fact shows the opposite. People can't tell the difference in truly blind testing even though they were absolutely convinced they could feel the differences between them. In short, these perceptions are mostly or fully all in the head.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is zero evidence that the type of joint pin affects accuracy. And if you stop and think about it for a minute, and ask yourself how on earth the type of joint pin could have an effect on accuracy, it becomes apparent how ludicrous that belief is. But things that don't on the surface seem logical or intuitive can sometimes be true, fair enough, but to justify a belief the majority of the evidence has to support that belief, and it just doesn't in this case--at all.

The idea of certain joint styles being better for certain "types of strokes" is equally ludicrous.

As far as the joint affecting the hit, pretty much the same thing. Many think they can tell the difference, but blind testing has shown that they can't. But how can it possibly be that what I think I can feel could be wrong? Humans are notoriously vulnerable to false perceptions and placebo effects etc. We all tend to see ourselves as the exception who don't have these vulnerabilities, and that our perceptions are actually what is real because we are careful about them, but again, when it comes to cue joints, the testing just hasn't bore that out and in fact shows the opposite. People can't tell the difference in truly blind testing even though they were absolutely convinced they could feel the differences between them. In short, these perceptions are mostly or fully all in the head.
Well stated. Agree 100% here.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If I was looking for to go wood to wood, I would choose the 3/8 x 10 for the simple reason that they are more readily available if you want a new shaft. Either the 10 or 16 thread shaft should be fine though.

This is a good reason to pick a thread, look at what the other stuff you have use and what is pretty common to find in other shafts that you can use with your cue. There are really 3 main joint types I'd stick with, radial, 3/8x10 and 5/16 X 14.

That would actually be my main reason to pick one thread over another, what shafts can I use it with, unless there was some amazing reason to swap to a new thread I did not use before like someone selling a cue at a bargain price (to keep as a spare/loaner/to re-sell) or the cue is so amazing the other factors don't matter.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is zero evidence that the type of joint pin affects accuracy. And if you stop and think about it for a minute, and ask yourself how on earth the type of joint pin could have an effect on accuracy, it becomes apparent how ludicrous that belief is. But things that don't on the surface seem logical or intuitive can sometimes be true, fair enough, but to justify a belief the majority of the evidence has to support that belief, and it just doesn't in this case--at all.

The idea of certain joint styles being better for certain "types of strokes" is equally ludicrous.

As far as the joint affecting the hit, pretty much the same thing. Many think they can tell the difference, but blind testing has shown that they can't. But how can it possibly be that what I think I can feel could be wrong? Humans are notoriously vulnerable to false perceptions and placebo effects etc. We all tend to see ourselves as the exception who don't have these vulnerabilities, and that our perceptions are actually what is real because we are careful about them, but again, when it comes to cue joints, the testing just hasn't bore that out and in fact shows the opposite. People can't tell the difference in truly blind testing even though they were absolutely convinced they could feel the differences between them. In short, these perceptions are mostly or fully all in the head.

I think by accuracy he means the energy transfer or centering, not so much the player shooting accuracy.
 

bb9ball

Registered
From John McChesney on RSB years ago...
Reference: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.sport.billiard/SgU43CN6aEc

Here's something interesting we tried in 1991:
At an event we had 16 cues with the butt, joint and the ferrules
covered with masking tape...then numbered.
No one could "see" if the cue was a steel, plastic or wood joint (as in a
Pete), nor
detect by the style of ferrule.
We had 70 players...each hit balls with the cues throughout the weekend.
The results:
Of nearly 800 attempts over the time period, the players guessed wrong
about what type joint was in the cue more than 7 out of 10 times.
A top pro (Meucci staffer) happened to be there, having done an exhibition
and the cue
he liked the most during the attempts:
He thought was surely a Meucci, plastic joint when in reality it was an
older
Adams with a piloted steel joint; and additionally guessed the Meucci he
shot with as a
cue with a steel joint.
Again, I maintain that cues with different joint materials may sound
differently;
may be balanced differently, but what is "hit" ?
Doesn't "hit" have to do with all the senses:
Vibration (feel), sound, balance, etc.
What is a "soft" hit? What is a "hard" hit? (what does this mean, if not
the sound the
cue makes upon impact, or are people ref. to the vibration in the butt?)
Does a hard hit vibrate more and make a different sound?
A soft hit vibrate less with a different sound?
I maintain that the primary criteria that differentiates one cue from
another begins with:
>The tip (soft, med or hard)
>The shaft diameter and density of the wood
>The taper (or stiffness of the shaft)
To this day, I still don't believe the joint has much to do with the
reaction of the cueball
off the shaft, rather it is the 3 aforementioned that have far more bearing
on how a cue
plays than anything else.
Remember, what makes the predator shaft play differently is what is located
at the tip,
inside the shaft, the ferrule and the laminations....not the joint or butt.
In closing, our experiment asked which cue the players liked best:
Of the 70 players, nearly 55 liked the hit of two cues with different
numbers:
When the two were exposed, they both were sneaky petes, wood to wood joints,
(one a Scruggs and the other a Huebler); both about 19 oz., both about 13
1/4mm and
tended to be on the stiff side of "hit". By the way, the 55 who liked the
hit of these two cues:
more than half thought they would be steel jointed.
John McChesney

Texas Express
National Nine Ball Tour
PO Box 700814
Dallas Tx 75370
Voice 214 495 tour (8687)
Fax 214 495 7616
j...@texasexpress.com
http://www.texasexpress.com
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm currently using a radial because it's the only wrapless cue I own and I have to use wrapless now but I prefer 3/8 x 10 because my experience is that screw keeps the joint tight.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
I think by accuracy he means the energy transfer or centering, not so much the player shooting accuracy.

Not sure how you could possibly manage to get "energy transfer" as the meaning of "accuracy" even if you accounting for the fact that the person may just not be good at explaining themselves. It's just too big a stretch to get from one to the other. In any case, if for some unexplainable reason he did somehow mean energy transfer, it just so happens that what I said still applies and you would be able to substitute the words "energy transfer" in for the word "accuracy" in my post. Not sure what you are talking about when you say "centering" so I can't comment on that.
 

cuesblues

cue accumulator
Gold Member
Silver Member
I would go with a 3/8-8 radial wood to wood instead of this weird ball joint 7 thread deal.
From a playability standpoint 3/8-8 radial wood to wood is as good as any, you can't go
wrong, and you have interchangeability with several shafts as well as shafts available
from the secondary market, not just Schmelke.
 
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