Ahem, Texas Express case for Robin, oh...I see you are still busy, nevermind.
Just kiddin, I like the debates. Keep firing everybody.
Just kiddin, I like the debates. Keep firing everybody.
Best Machine Ever. :-)
- Thread starter John Barton
- Start date
Well if you won't answer the question I suppose that some one will have to start a thread kinda like this one and just throw it out there, hell I bet that thread will go at least 11 pages John!!!!!!:wink:
As I mentioned before, with respect to you and your original question, (see post #2)
If I were a pig farmer, of course I would want a better machine to farm pigs. Whatever machine that would be. Lasers, point making, pig growing machine.....
If I had a new machine or technique, and I legally owned it, it would be my right to sell it or give it away to anyone in the country providing the nation's laws allowed it. . . Did I have to tell you that? I would've thought you'd already known the answer to that question. But, that isn't the answer you're looking for, is it?
Is it debate you're after? or discussion? bait and switch maybe?
John Barton
New member
It is the answer I am looking for. So I know how YOU feel about it. This is the way I feel about it. What answer do you think I am looking for?
I was asking the question to spark discussion among anyone who wants to talk about it. Especially those who do not agree with the way I see it. I'd like to know their reasoning.
Despite the thread being derailed repeatedly with straw man (thank you Dale) arguments and personal attacks I think that we did get some good points even if I don't agree with them.
Ryan feels that it's not a question of legality but instead a question of character to sell your knowledge to foreigners.
Bob puts it on par with national secrets and spying.
Sheldon and Willee both feel that a cue maker would want to acquire knowledge or machinery that works great no matter who made them.
Craig has a lot to say but nothing to do with the topic.
You put up a thoughtful post that touched on the subject and on the general mood where the mood really has nothing to do with the topic.
Frank just feels that it's important to lecture me on how to behave with nothing to really add about the topic.
Dale wants to discuss Freudian motivations and the Socratic method and has nothing to add to the actual topic because he feels that he has identified another topic, "the real issue" but he won't let the rest of us in on it.
Lee feels that it's a sell out to sell to foreigners but he wouldn't answer the question of whether he would seek to build a similar machine if the Chinese came to market with one that was better than what he sells now.
Did I miss anyone?
As I said in the other thread, I get it, at least I think I do WHY some of you are so against cues that come from "faceless" foreign factories.
Kaz Miki of Mezz cues came to the ICCS. He gave us a history of Mezz cues starting in the 60s. He told us that David Foreman and Richard Helmstetter came to his father in 1968 to ask them to make cues and they signed a contract only to make cues for Adams under a variety of brand names. Kaz Miki said that his company was never taught by Richard Helmstetter how to make cues. I am certain however that Richard had some influence on how Mezz built cues.
Anyway, 40 years later Kaz Miki, a second generation cue maker, has stepped out with his Exceed brand of high end cues that were shown at the ICCS show and accepted by the cue collecting world as being on par with anything else in the world. He has paid his dues to belong there.
I am not saying that the cues from China will ever be shown at a show like the ICCS but I certainly believe that the collectors are savvy enough to determine if the cues shown deserve to be there or not.
And if the Chinese cue makers also begin to push the envelope when it comes to cue making, be it out of necessity just to stay competitive, or better still because they love the art, then I am certain that there will come a time when they do invent a machine or discover techniques that will improve the art of cue making.
I had a talk with Bill Stroud, whom many of you openly despise for what you see as "selling out". Bill and I both agreed that the Chinese only do what they are told and don't understand or really care about why they are doing it. He said that until they start to think about why they do things then they will never be better than what they are shown to do.
They seek knowledge just like you do. If you are a cue maker that has ever asked a question of any other cue maker or given your knowledge to another cue maker then you are no different than the Chinese cue maker who just wants to make a better product for his customers.
If you think it's selling out to teach the Chinese how to build cues then you also think it's selling out to teach a hundred hobby cue makers to build cues. If not then you are being hypocritical in my view.
If you think it's ok for American cue makers to sell their products to Chinese buyers but not ok for Chinese makers to sell their cues to America then you are being hypocritical.
As for Bill Stroud, he has done two things for the American cue industry.
A. He has brought a lot of innovation to the craft that benefits all cue makers. Bill has constantly raised the bar in cue making and been a trailblazer in the application of design and technology.
B. He has helped the Chinese to raise their quality level so that people buying cues in the lower end of the market get decent cues to play with. Which then leads to a certain percentage graduating to custom cues.
So y'all can label him a sell out if you want to but the fact remains that if you are a cue maker today you owe Bill Stroud for helping to provide a customer base on the low end and on the high end of the spectrum.
As for me, well you can call me all the names that you want to, you can attempt to attribute motivation beyond what I told you is my motivation, you can attempt to belittle me, whatever you want to do, but you can't escape the fact that we live on a globe and in the end are just as responsible for the well being of people halfway around the world as we are of our own family. And you can't escape the fact that if you take more than you give that eventually this will result in some sort of conflict that will be far worse.
And, with that, I really have said all that I want to say on this subject. I am certain that no one who started out with a certain viewpoint on the original question has changed or softened their stance. However I think that seeing two sides will prompt some readers to think about it a little more when someone spouts off in another thread with ridiculous statements like "greedy capitalists are selling out America", or more personally, "so and so is selling out America by having cues made in China".
For myself I think I understand the opposition from an emotional standpoint. I get that. All the rest to me is just fluff that is used to mask having to simply say that you just don't like it.
Peace. Out.
John
John Barton
New member
If you do then I promise that I will answer your direct questions unlike the way you do it.
Actually, Ryan never singled out "foreigners." I guard some of my "secrets" from everyone. Teaching anyone something that makes you unique is crazy. If a cue maker has trouble with a particular technique, I help them out but I will never give out info to someone that has never tried and failed.
Not one response in this thread, unless I missed it, accused Stroud of selling out. Not one response has said anything negative about Stroud. IIRC, I was the only one who even mentioned his name.
I think it is not in a cue maker's best interest to teach another how to build cues. It is only creating competition for themselves. The only real difference I see is that an American cue maker will not rip out 2-3 million cue a year. BTW, how many Fury cues are made each year.....?
No one said that except you but I am willing to bet more cues are coming from China than there are going to China. How many Fury cues are made each year...?
He has done a lot more than that, IMO. His work continues to amaze me.
With pleasure...
]
The Chinese at one point banned Bruce Lee from teaching martial arts to non-chinese, or as they put it, white people.
Their reasons on both sides were very different:
only Chinese understand the true nature of martial arts, and Chinese Gungfu in particular. To be empowered by the martial arts is a blessing from God and to receive that instruction in whole, you had to be pure.
and so were Bruce's, but the reasons were very different. Anyone under the sun with an open heart can learn gungfu as long as the pupil is willing, will the master appear. What Bruce lacked was real wisdom and respect for authority and tradition. Bruce, in a way, took away from true martial art, and put his own twist on it calling it something else. He packaged it, sold it, and people all over the world bought his bullshit. Then knowledge he was spouting off was traditional and fundamental Buddhist and Taoist principles. The 'Tao of Jeet Kune Do' was good for people to understand via modern translation, but it left out so many important variables pertaining to tradition and real value.
Today, Bruce Lee is credited, much like Michael Jackson to be the King of his craft. Bruce Lee is also single-handedly responsible for the popularity of the martial arts today. Don't tell me, you never imitated Bruce Lee doing the yell and twirling something around. Bruce has also been labeled as the original master of MMA.
In the end, Bruce Lee won in his own way, and so did the Elders.
Many American people learned a great deal from Bruce's teaching and today, martial arts has spread incredibly through not necessarily his teaching, but through his movies. The martial arts today ranks higher in popularity than Professional Boxing. Today, the UFC and MMA is taking martial arts to a new level and those people are really making a lot of money. The important question we should ask now, is this: are they doing more good than bad?
I personally am a purist and am not a fan of MMA. I think they are representing martial arts in the wrong way. What they are practicing is not martial arts, it is strictly fighting. The biggest misconception about martial arts is that it's just to learn how to fight. Fighting is important, but there is something much more important, and that's what many shallow people fail to recognize. We have shallow people everywhere. That's why the UFC, WWE, and other shit like that sells.
Bruce Lee never intended for the martial arts to become like it has today. He wanted spiritual enlightenment though individual training and peace among all who practice it. Tattoos, blood, and tough guy attitude represents a far cry from the original intention. This might be something the Elder Chinese envisioned with their wisdom at the time they banned Bruce from teaching to non-chinese.
The important thing to look at is not what you necessarily know, but it's what you do with that knowledge. We should be careful who we teach. That person may turn out to be a terribly wrong person. When it comes to something that takes incredible discipline and passion to master, we shouldn't worry about who knows what. If there is someone worthy of mastering that skill, they're going to discipline themselves to get there. If there someone who is not worthy of that skill, nothing they can do will give it to them, even if it's spelled out for them. True skill is acquired only through dedication to that one thing. If it is meant to be, God will illuminate your path.
Knowledge is power, but if you have a group of people who just want to make cues for the sake of making great cues, that is one thing. If you have a group of people who want to make cues just to make money, well, that's not new to us either. The scary thing is, who is going to take that knowledge and turn it in to something that spins out of control? I would personally like to see the art of cue making around for a long time, but I believe some fear that we might see Southwest or Balabushka quality cues being sold for $200.
Thomas Wayne brought up a very good point during the ICCS cue makers meeting. At that table were some heavyweight guys like Bill Schick, Paul Drexler, Richard Chudy, Jerry McWorter, Ron Haley, John Showman, Andy Gilbert, ........ He said, "We need to ask ourselves, have we have truly mastered what we already know? Can we not look back at what we've done say there is not one thing we could've done different or better? Do we have all our methods, techniques, skills completely mastered? That is the beauty of true art. Mastery of your craft/manifestation of something from nothing. That is a rare quality that glows in the artisan's final product.
John they certainly don't call you the Minister of Propaganda for nothing!!!!!!!!!
:grin:John you bring Mr.Stroud into this conversation like he is a Knight on a White Horse with Shining Armor, and you attempt to use him to support your misshapen idea's. John the word sell out means just that, it clearly describes some one who swallows their principles for payment of some type. Mr. Stroud did not go to China for free, and I doubt he did it because he thought it was truly the right thing to do, he did it because he needed the money. Like you John, when you were running Instroke in Germany you had nothing nice to say about the Chinese, hell they were knocking off your designs. But for the same reason that Mr. Stroud jumped you also Jumped, you swallowed your pride, you chucked your convictions out the window, and you took the money.
The truth is being a sell out is the easy way to go, and for awhile it may keep your head above water, but it is also a sign of a lack of character. But, once your information is dated you are right back where you started, except those in the industry you hurt by your actions will no longer give you the time of day.
Face it John the day when you were useful to these people will soon end, it is going to get kinda lonely for you John, but you made your bed, no one told you to sell out. This is why, I have little respect for your opinion, and since you have already sold yourself out once there is no telling when you will do it again, so your word is worthless to me. All these little threads you start are designed to deflect the sell out image that surrounds you like a Halo. Your not fooling anyone John, and no matter how many paragraphs you write in response to this post you can't hide from that voice inside your head or from what you see in the mirror.
John you know how a sell out is viewed and you also know that this is why you have so many people who disagree with your philosophy John, again face it you can't hide from yourself!!!!!!!!!!!:yeah::yeah::yeah:
Oh and by the way John, this is right on topic!!
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John Barton
New member
John they certainly don't call you the Minister of Propaganda for nothing!!!!!!!!!
John you bring Mr.Stroud into this conversation like he is a Knight on a White Horse with Shining Armor, and you attempt to use him to support your misshapen idea's. John the word sell out means just that, it clearly describes some one who swallows their principles for payment of some type. Mr. Stroud did not go to China for free, and I doubt he did it because he thought it was truly the right thing to do, he did it because he needed the money. Like you John, when you were running Instroke in Germany you had nothing nice to say about the Chinese, hell they were knocking off your designs. But for the same reason that Mr. Stroud jumped you also Jumped, you swallowed your pride, you chucked your convictions out the window, and you took the money.
The truth is being a sell out is the easy way to go, and for awhile it may keep your head above water. But, once your information is dated you are right back where you started, except those in the industry you hurt by your actions will no longer give you the time of day.
Face it John the day when you were useful to these people will soon end, it is going to get kinda lonely John, but you made your bed, no one told you to sell out. This is why, I have little respect for your opinion, and since you have already sold yourself out once there is no telling when you will do it again, so your word is worthless to me.
This is how a sell out is viewed and this is why you have so many people who disagree with your philosophy John!!!!!!!!!!!:yeah::yeah::yeah:
You are incorrect. When I made the cases in Germany I had in fact NOTHING to say about the Chinese or anyone else. I have always maintained that how well made a product is is more important than WHERE it's made.
You can look this up on RSB (google groups) and find out that I have been completely consistent on this subject.
And I have also not changed my mind about the Chinese government's way of handling human rights, freedom of speech and pollution. But now that I am here on the front lines doing my part to show ordinary Chinese a better way to be, in as much as our way of life is the "better" way. I am least here finding out for myself what is true and not true about China and not relying on sound bites on Fox for my information.
I said that Bill Stroud has benefited the billiard industry in two important ways. You can dispute it if you want to but you won't. Would it have made a difference if he had given away his information for free?
Once again you make assumptions about "the industry" that you cannot support because you are not inside the industry Craig. You are one step above the consumer in the chain Craig and even though you pretend to have inside information you don't.
For your information, the production Instroke cases were always made in the Czech Republic. A country bordering Germany which had wages at the time of about $3 an hour roughly the equivalent of Taiwan. I was never hampered by patriotic feelings when it came to Instroke cases because I developed the case all by myself in my attic without regard to what country I happened to be in. When it came time to mass produce them I looked for whatever factory would be best to do it. The one German one I looked at made the worst quality of all the samples I received.
When I decided to have the cases produced in Taiwan it had nothing to do with swallowing any pride. It was purely practical because I needed a producer and the factory was willing to retool and change their methods to be able to produce to my quality standards. My cost per case was not lowered.
Just like you didn't even know how an Instroke case is made and threatened to bet me and bandsaw one in half to 'prove' that you were right you are completely ignorant of the reasons and psychology of my business partnerships and the decisions surrounding them. You do remember telling me how an Instroke is built right? You insisted that it was built a certain way and threatened to bandsaw one in half and show everyone how "inferior" it is and wouldn't listen when I told you that it wasn't the way you think it is. How you could want to bet with the guy who developed the Instroke case on how it's built is beyond me but it does illustrate how out of touch you are.
If you consider me to be a sellout then what do you say to yourself when you sell import cues with no warranty to your customers when you say that they will fall apart quickly. You have maligned import cues on this board many times, you have maligned the companies that sell them, you have maligned the companies that make them, you have called the professionals who are sponsored by these companies liars, and yet you stock and sell import cues?
I'd like to see how you answer this since I can see that we have no hope of getting you to answer the original question.
John Barton
New member
You do know that Bruce Lee was an American who was raised in Hong Kong right? The Chinese could not ban him from teaching martial arts to westerners.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee
Please cite your source.
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John Barton
New member
Exactly.
And this is the key. As a cue maker do you seek knowledge from others? Do you give knowledge to others? Do you buy or sell knowledge?
If you aren't 100% self-reliant then you can hardly look down on someone else who isn't either, at least not with much credibility.
Thomas Wayne was making that statement in defense of CNC as a tool because Chris Nitti, who uses a pantograph, made a statement that he doesn't see the "art" in having a CNC mill do the pockets and parts as opposed to a pantograph guided mill do the same parts and pockets.
Thomas' point was that people who aren't good cue makers will think that they could just "be better" if they had that new tool. His point was that these guys haven't mastered the tools that they already have.
Then from there the discussion went into whether Balabushka was a good cue maker or not because he didn't use his own point blanks........which makes my point that a good cue maker seeks to acquire that which makes his product better, in this case Spain and Szamboti blanks are what George chose to put in his cues.
John Barton
New member
Sorry your response was lost in the onslaught of non-topical answers.
What was it again?
Or was it your answer about spies and espionage?
Can you answer it again and exclude the obvious about national security and illegal spying?
John Barton
New member
JB, remember to take a break from the debate, to post the iccs pics!
Right. Ok. My bad.
John Barton
New member
I guess we have different opinions on what openly despising a person is. I don't say the things about you that you have said about me for example.
You have made it a point to insult and degrade me and you don't even know me.
I also didn't call you a hypocrite Bob but if you want to accept that label and defend yourself from it then be my guest.
Do you fit the description of what I feel is a hypocrite as pertains to my original question?
And yes, I can like a person even if they don't disagree with me and even if they do things differently than I would do it.
That's called tolerance. Try it sometime it's liberating.
John Barton
New member
I said you have a problem with selling the information.
My comment was not restricted to this thread. And in fact you feel that Stroud has negatively impacted the American cue makers by teaching the Chinese how to do a better job. Or do you not feel that Stroud has had a negative impact?
What if the increased competition also creates a larger market? What kind of point are you trying to make by repeatedly asking me how many Fury cues are made each year? We make 90 million a year. Who cares how many we make? Do I care how much business Mueller Sporting Goods does on all the imported trinkets they sell? I am not attacking your employer so why are you attacking mine.
You are willing to bet that, really?
And your point is?At least we agree on something.
With pleasure...
I am sure.
Mods, can we please lock this thread or move it to the NPR section?
This is really not a cuemaking thread anymore.
No offense to the combatants but this being on top of this section almost every hour is an eyesore imo.
~Do you want peace or do you want to be right?~
This is really not a cuemaking thread anymore.
No offense to the combatants but this being on top of this section almost every hour is an eyesore imo.
~Do you want peace or do you want to be right?~
John, I said all I need to, I'm through with all the banter, the facts are the facts John and you can't hide from yourself.