Best table...

West Point 1987

On the Hill, Out of Gas
Silver Member
I bought a 9 foot pro-am with pockets shimmed to 4 3/8". Simonis 860, one piece slate. My only regret was the one piece slate...it can only be installed in a ground level room, so unless you have a huge walkout basement, it's likely going into the garage...or your living room, which will thrill the wife. The table plays better than anything in existence, and is built to last generations. You'll only buy one pool table, so why settle?
 

Jimmorrison

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It’s fine to state an opinion on subjective things like ascetics. I like it, I think it’s ugly, etc. That’s valid, but to make definitive statements and pretend it’s an opinion, is not valid. It’s lying. We now call it spreading disinformation, but it’s just lying. Anyone may or may not like the way a Diamond looks, or even the way it plays. Claiming it’s not a well made table, is just lying.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am not lying. Ask any Pool guy that moves them.
Here's a piece of my diamond's internals and the (black wood) table can sort of be seen in the back.

If there's particle board inside and of that then I'd be impressed with that feat.
Screenshot_20240327-184304.jpg
 

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Call a few guys that move Pool tables. They take them apart and put them back together so they know how they are built and the material they are built with. I know a man that does that and he told me Diamond tables are junk. Built with particle board. I just saw a beautiful 9' Gold Crown on FB Market place for $3,000 Delivered and assembled with new cloth the color you choose.
We would like to know the hack that said Diamond tables are junk so we never use someone who doesn’t know what’s he’s talking about.
 

Jimmorrison

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is a much viewed video on YouTube. It shows a 9’ Pro Am being put together, in a customer basement. The vid shows every component, piece by piece. Excellent materials and design, solid as a rock. Best leveling system out there. Not an opinion, verifiable fact.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just helped a customer pick up a Diamond Professional for $4500. It had been set up in a guy's house and NEVER played on. Still brand new, and came with a wall rack for balls and cues, and the nice Diamond cover. Amazing deal.
6ZTqh3D.jpeg
And that's the best wood color they offer too. I really like that cherry tone.

The good Lord said it wasn't for me and I'm ok with that.

Here's mine
Screenshot_20240327-194821.jpg
 

Jimmorrison

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I just had my 9' Diamond Pro-Am installed last week. I watched the full install. I did not see even one piece of particle board. I took pictures throughout the install.
Congratulations on your table, I hope you are happy with it. Did they roll it in, fully assembled, or put it together at your location?
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
I may be old school, but for the money, a used Gold Crown professionally restored is a rock solid, tournament quality table. If you are a recent returning player, ask for 4 1/2” pockets. If Spend the money you save on a high tech led lighting system.

Diamonds are great but ugly and not enough of them on the resale market to get them used at a reasonable price. I've heard Diamonds rails are cut to length instead of shimmed but shimmed rails on the Brunswicks play fine.
I am completely happy with my GCI but I also spent a couple thousand dollars making the table right with 4 3/8" pockets that was beyond the purchase price. Shimming pockets on a Gold Crown gets you a crappy playing table and if its a GCI or GCII you simply can not buy the correct cushions anymore, that profile is no longer made.
 

TrxR

Well-known member
I just read that some older Diamonds pre leveling system had some particle board type slate backers. Can completely confirm it but that wouldn't be structural. Isn't the slate backer only used to staple cloth to?
 

Sheldon

dontneednostinkintitle
Silver Member
I just read that some older Diamonds pre leveling system had some particle board type slate backers. Can completely confirm it but that wouldn't be structural. Isn't the slate backer only used to staple cloth to?
Pretty much. It also gave the slate a solid base to rest on the frame. I think anyone familiar with the proper glue down method for bed cloth doesn't use many staples when installing bed cloth anymore.
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
if you are a very serious player than a diamond is the way to go as that is what you mostly compete on.

if you want a home table than there are many choices that may be more appealing to look at for most.

all higher end tables will outlast the buyer.

the op likes older solid wood tables and so do i and i like drop pockets with leather webbing as they are quiet

i think the particle board thing was including plywood. meaning not solid heavy hardwood from large trees. which nowadays is out of the price range for most things made. but found on most of the good old tables of yesteryear.
 

TrxR

Well-known member
if you are a very serious player than a diamond is the way to go as that is what you mostly compete on.

if you want a home table than there are many choices that may be more appealing to look at for most.

all higher end tables will outlast the buyer.

the op likes older solid wood tables and so do i and i like drop pockets with leather webbing as they are quiet

i think the particle board thing was including plywood. meaning not solid heavy hardwood from large trees. which nowadays is out of the price range for most things made. but found on most of the good old tables of yesteryear.
That may be but plywood is not particleboard and depending on the usage can be stronger and more stable than solid wood.
 

snookered_again

Well-known member
Phenolic plastic (phenol-aldehyde resin) is considered to be the foundation of the plastic molding industry. It contributes to a large percentage of all molded plastic products and is used almost exclusively for industrial plastic materials.

That may be but plywood is not particleboard and depending on the usage can be stronger and more stable than solid wood.
the point was that the weight of the rails important, as is how firmly the rail is attached to the slate.
I figured the physics of why that is would be quite well understood but some wanted to engage in insulting childish talk rather than discussing the intricacies of the rails themselves..

lightweight rails have poor bounce characteristics in general, that's why steel was added to weight the rails of some older snooker tables.

Bolts that protrude through the felt and basically clamp the rail to the base frame or to the slate won't hold the rail as firmly as by other means such as attaching the rail directly to the slate. This is the way most of the tables are built.
with some of the older tables you will find nice hardwoods used in the rails, some are steel backed, its like a 1/4" plate behind the skirt which is usually outside the rail.. a bolt that can protrude the rail and attach directly into the slate basically ties the weight of the slate to that of the rail and adding firmness..

of course manufactures have considered the cost of such and if you add that much weight yes the frame needs to be strong enough to support it.. there has been no point in time that a manufacturer would not consider their costs and think to reduce costs in order to compete on price.. some went all the way to really build things well to get their name recognized , others spent a lot on advertising to pump brand name recognition.
If you examine the older snooker tables there is a massive frame and its normallly all really good hardwood too.. If you were to compare that to a diamond table youd quickly see the differences and probably come to the realization that things could be made better, but at a price..
the feel of playing on a really solid and well made table is dramatic, one thing the player can sense easily is how silently they return the ball, the cheaper the table is, the more of a "bonk" you can hear, yes it's worse if a rail is actually loose..

The exact same principles can apply to any table not only a snooker table and there are some small manufacturers priding themselves on building better than the mainstream.

most consumer products have declined in quality over time. washing machiness , furnaces and cars used to last 30 years quite easily..

now it's just not the same market.. I see the same with a lot of industrial machinery, ther is no cmparison in the casting quality , repairability , longevity etc. Now the average lifespan of a furnace or a hot water heater or a stove or even a car is reduced a great deal from what it was earlier in time. expectations have been reduced accordingly. manufacturers have also recognised that if they can become well recognised they can increase the turnover of their products, again a way of making more money. Businesses are in business to make money not to make the best or most repiairable products. business principles dont involve consicence, they involve money decisions.

Pool table aren't much different. the manufacturers found a lot of cost savings, there were improvements in process like in slate cutting.. CNC cutting of parts, lamination processes and equipment, higher use of plastics reduce costs because plastic is cheap.
since there are really no moving parts most of the wear is in the cloth and of course rubber degrades over time, It always has. leather is of lesser quality on average.. some old tables still have the original pockets from back in the 30's and the materils used is unapproachable today.. now they use nylon string not high end linen or hemp which lasted a century.
If you want somethign built like a brick shithouse , buy an old one, if you are happy with a diamond, thats fine.. Could the design be improved ? yes, definitely..

I have to replace my fiurnace , it was built int he 50's gee the thing lasted over 70 years.. can I find one today that will go that long, probably not ! Im hearing of others replacing them after 10-15 years.. similar with the new electric cars. Just not ever intended to last, more garbage throwaway designs, new ones each year, factory repairs and high costs and parts availablity are factors.. The automakers don't want cars that last 35 years like the one I drive.. Try to find a new one that will ? good luck with that !
 

TrxR

Well-known member
the point was that the weight of the rails important, as is how firmly the rail is attached to the slate.
I figured the physics of why that is would be quite well understood but some wanted to engage in insulting childish talk rather than discussing the intricacies of the rails themselves..

lightweight rails have poor bounce characteristics in general, that's why steel was added to weight the rails of some older snooker tables.

Bolts that protrude through the felt and basically clamp the rail to the base frame or to the slate won't hold the rail as firmly as by other means such as attaching the rail directly to the slate. This is the way most of the tables are built.
with some of the older tables you will find nice hardwoods used in the rails, some are steel backed, its like a 1/4" plate behind the skirt which is usually outside the rail.. a bolt that can protrude the rail and attach directly into the slate basically ties the weight of the slate to that of the rail and adding firmness..

of course manufactures have considered the cost of such and if you add that much weight yes the frame needs to be strong enough to support it.. there has been no point in time that a manufacturer would not consider their costs and think to reduce costs in order to compete on price.. some went all the way to really build things well to get their name recognized , others spent a lot on advertising to pump brand name recognition.
If you examine the older snooker tables there is a massive frame and its normallly all really good hardwood too.. If you were to compare that to a diamond table youd quickly see the differences and probably come to the realization that things could be made better, but at a price..
the feel of playing on a really solid and well made table is dramatic, one thing the player can sense easily is how silently they return the ball, the cheaper the table is, the more of a "bonk" you can hear, yes it's worse if a rail is actually loose..

The exact same principles can apply to any table not only a snooker table and there are some small manufacturers priding themselves on building better than the mainstream.

most consumer products have declined in quality over time. washing machiness , furnaces and cars used to last 30 years quite easily..

now it's just not the same market.. I see the same with a lot of industrial machinery, ther is no cmparison in the casting quality , repairability , longevity etc. Now the average lifespan of a furnace or a hot water heater or a stove or even a car is reduced a great deal from what it was earlier in time. expectations have been reduced accordingly. manufacturers have also recognised that if they can become well recognised they can increase the turnover of their products, again a way of making more money. Businesses are in business to make money not to make the best or most repiairable products. business principles dont involve consicence, they involve money decisions.

Pool table aren't much different. the manufacturers found a lot of cost savings, there were improvements in process like in slate cutting.. CNC cutting of parts, lamination processes and equipment, higher use of plastics reduce costs because plastic is cheap.
since there are really no moving parts most of the wear is in the cloth and of course rubber degrades over time, It always has. leather is of lesser quality on average.. some old tables still have the original pockets from back in the 30's and the materils used is unapproachable today.. now they use nylon string not high end linen or hemp which lasted a century.
If you want somethign built like a brick shithouse , buy an old one, if you are happy with a diamond, thats fine.. Could the design be improved ? yes, definitely..

I have to replace my fiurnace , it was built int he 50's gee the thing lasted over 70 years.. can I find one today that will go that long, probably not ! Im hearing of others replacing them after 10-15 years.. similar with the new electric cars. Just not ever intended to last, more garbage throwaway designs, new ones each year, factory repairs and high costs and parts availablity are factors.. The automakers don't want cars that last 35 years like the one I drive.. Try to find a new one that will ? good luck with that !
Are you certain that the steel was added for weight and not to add stiffness to the T-rail design? Im thinking it's more to keep the flex out than weight . That flex isn't there with through bolt. With a T-rail setup you have the whole section of the rail about the slate unsupported which will cause flex which is why I think they added the steel plate. That plate setup is also connected to the frame work as well to help support it. The through bolt setup is clamping the rails directly to the top of the slate not just hanging off the side.

Looking at the material used in a Diamond I don't see any reason it won't last just as long as any of those antique tables, the Proam is built like a tank.

You can like your big antique tables and they do look good but they do not play as good as a true tournament style table. Snooker tables are a different animal and tend to have narrower rails as well from what I've seen and use a thicker slate than most pool tables.

Carom/3 cushion tables even use through bolted rails and 3 cushion is all about the rails.

Here's an interesting post talking about steel plated rails. They aren't the greatest thing.

 
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tg_vegas

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Congratulations on your table, I hope you are happy with it. Did they roll it in, fully assembled, or put it together at your location?
It arrived at my house fully assembled. As the install was on the second floor of my house, and up 24 stairs, they took it apart inside the truck and re-assembled it upstairs in my house. Turned out great. Only issue is that when they come fully assembled, Diamond trims the excess cloth right at the bottom of the slate support, leaving almost nothing for the technician to get a hold of to re-stretch the felt upon installation. However, I was assured that if I have any issues, they will immediately come and re-felt.

Overall, a terrific experience with TONY CROSBY and his crew, I highly recommend them!
 

Sheldon

dontneednostinkintitle
Silver Member
Diamond trims the excess cloth right at the bottom of the slate support, leaving almost nothing for the technician to get a hold of to re-stretch the felt upon installation.
I've done this a bunch of times on Diamonds. Simonis relaxes a little and you can always get more out of it. That gives you plenty to grab hold of when replacing original cloth if you use sheet metal pliers.

5cgCuLZ.png
 

lakeman77

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't think there is a "Best Table". The table you play league or tournaments on at your local room is the best table for your home. That's what you have to be good on. Practice on a 7ft. Valley and play league on a 9 ft Diamonds you get killed, the opposite also is true, IMO. Try to view them as tools, parts of the game.
 
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