Better I play, the more I lose

[MacGyver]

I believe I know the answer but would like to hear what you all think.

This is an 8ball question(in league play).

First let me say I am a better position, pattern, strategy and safety player than I am shotmaker. I'll often miss difficult cuts, but if I start with a decent shot I can get shape on the rest no problem. Even with one or two breakouts, I can usually get out or play safe early.


Recently I've actually seen my game step up, so I can see the runout a lot more than I used to. Where before I might shy away from a breakout or difficult position, I am getting to the point where I can get out or very close.


It seems now that I am going for the run out, some bad shape, unlucky breakout or other type of mistake will leave myself with 1-2 balls on the table and leave the opponent a run out.

Now, I could say the solution is to play safe in each run to not get so far ahead of the opponent, but that seems like I am not gaining advantage of any new skill i've worked on, instead relying on my old game.

I have a hard time playing safe when i can "see" the runout and know its possible without any mistakes, and it seems like I would be stunting my progress by not going for it when its a possible runout.


OTOH I am losing more games... is this something I should just live with until my runouts come at a higher %? or should I play competitively at worse skill than I practice at, trying for runouts in practice but always playing safe early against others?


If playing someone who can't run out 50% of their games, is it better to let them try to runout(leaving 5-6 of your balls on the table) and hope that they clear the table for you to run it?

I can't figure out how to use my improved game at the table, as it only seems to get me in trouble atm.... any advice on how to get past this stage would be helpful.

Thanks!

 

[grindz]

14.1 is the best game to help your 8 ball game IMO. If you practice that it will teach you to have a 'back door' shot in case you miss your position on your intended ball, also to arrange patterns so that you have the right option ball after the breakout.

Sounds like you are getting better at running balls & this will favor your opponent if you don't get out or have a good ducking strategy. I would get some good 8 ball dvd's and watch the patterns closely. Each opponent is different and gauging their speed is crucial too.

I hope this helps....but I'm just a hack, so what do I know....:wink:

td

 

[Cameron Smith]

I believe I know the answer but would like to hear what you all think.

This is an 8ball question(in league play).

First let me say I am a better position, pattern, strategy and safety player than I am shotmaker. I'll often miss difficult cuts, but if I start with a decent shot I can get shape on the rest no problem. Even with one or two breakouts, I can usually get out or play safe early.


Recently I've actually seen my game step up, so I can see the runout a lot more than I used to. Where before I might shy away from a breakout or difficult position, I am getting to the point where I can get out or very close.


It seems now that I am going for the run out, some bad shape, unlucky breakout or other type of mistake will leave myself with 1-2 balls on the table and leave the opponent a run out.

Now, I could say the solution is to play safe in each run to not get so far ahead of the opponent, but that seems like I am not gaining advantage of any new skill i've worked on, instead relying on my old game.

I have a hard time playing safe when i can "see" the runout and know its possible without any mistakes, and it seems like I would be stunting my progress by not going for it when its a possible runout.


OTOH I am losing more games... is this something I should just live with until my runouts come at a higher %? or should I play competitively at worse skill than I practice at, trying for runouts in practice but always playing safe early against others?


If playing someone who can't run out 50% of their games, is it better to let them try to runout(leaving 5-6 of your balls on the table) and hope that they clear the table for you to run it?

I can't figure out how to use my improved game at the table, as it only seems to get me in trouble atm.... any advice on how to get past this stage would be helpful.

Thanks!

Everyone goes through this at some point in their development.

As already mentioned work on your 14.1 game so you can better see the patterns.

Re-evaluate your run out every couple of balls or so. If you are getting into a bad position you can usually identify it early on. Don't try and force a run out that just isn't going to happen.

If I don't think the run out is possible I usually run 3 balls and then play position for a safety that would put me in stronger position.

With that said, 8 ball is my worst game, mostly because I never play it.

 

[softshot]

Stick with it dude you are "THIS" close to making a huge jump...

Just keep hitting balls..

If the run is there you TAKE it... if its not hide...

if it is just out of your reach ..stretch for it... or it will always be out of your reach..

 

[MacGyver]

Thank you for the advice, to clarify I do play a bit of 14.1, snooker, one pocket, and a lot of games.

My pattern play is pretty strong, and I can play a lockup safety if the runout isn't there.

The things that stop my runout are usually getting an unlucky breakout, getting just a cm too far on a tight position shot, getting on the wrong side of the ball on longer(3/4 of table) position shots, or getting stuck needing to shoot a ball up table and just missing(again much stronger when I give myself close shots, on longer cut shots I'm not as accurate as I should be)...

I know the pattern to play its just in some cases need pinpoint position and I'm just a little bit off(mostly playing 8ball on barbox, play other games on bigger tables)

 

[pooltchr]

You need to know your own game, and play your percentages. You said you might stop a run by missing shape by just a tiny bit. If you are looking at a shot that requires that much precision for shape, even though it is possible, the odds might be against you. That's the time to duck.
Everyone wants to run out a rack, but remember, the idea is to WIN THE GAME. If it requires an extra inning, so what??? Break and Run patches are worthless....winning the match is what you are looking for. Know your limits, and play smarter.
If you run 3 racks but lose a match, you still lost. If you didn't run any racks at all, but won the match....you won!
Steve

 

[sjm]

Thank you for the advice, to clarify I do play a bit of 14.1, snooker, one pocket, and a lot of games.

My pattern play is pretty strong, and I can play a lockup safety if the runout isn't there.

The things that stop my runout are usually getting an unlucky breakout, getting just a cm too far on a tight position shot, getting on the wrong side of the ball on longer(3/4 of table) position shots, or getting stuck needing to shoot a ball up table and just missing(again much stronger when I give myself close shots, on longer cut shots I'm not as accurate as I should be)...

I know the pattern to play its just in some cases need pinpoint position and I'm just a little bit off(mostly playing 8ball on barbox, play other games on bigger tables)

If you are playing solid patterns but still missing shape, odds are you are making errors in your speed control. Still, the need for pinpoint position is very rare when you play the patterns correctly, so I'm struggling with your contention that this is your biggest problem. If you find yourself needing to play a lot of pinpoint position, trust me, you are making errors in your pattern play.

 

[Thunderball]

Stick with it dude you are "THIS" close to making a huge jump...

Just keep hitting balls..

If the run is there you TAKE it... if its not hide...

if it is just out of your reach ..stretch for it... or it will always be out of your reach..

Excellent post imo.
My game is very much in this same spot,or perhaps just beyond,but not by much.

Two things to remember:

Winning games and running balls are not exactly the same thing...esp in 8ball.

Running down to one ball or the eight and taking a seat is huge favor for the other guy.When I'm on I'll catch a W in this situation more often then not.

Running down,but not running out is a cardinal sin against a decent shot maker.

 

[ironman]

I believe I know the answer but would like to hear what you all think.

This is an 8ball question(in league play).

First let me say I am a better position, pattern, strategy and safety player than I am shotmaker. I'll often miss difficult cuts, but if I start with a decent shot I can get shape on the rest no problem. Even with one or two breakouts, I can usually get out or play safe early.


Recently I've actually seen my game step up, so I can see the runout a lot more than I used to. Where before I might shy away from a breakout or difficult position, I am getting to the point where I can get out or very close.


It seems now that I am going for the run out, some bad shape, unlucky breakout or other type of mistake will leave myself with 1-2 balls on the table and leave the opponent a run out.

Now, I could say the solution is to play safe in each run to not get so far ahead of the opponent, but that seems like I am not gaining advantage of any new skill i've worked on, instead relying on my old game.

I have a hard time playing safe when i can "see" the runout and know its possible without any mistakes, and it seems like I would be stunting my progress by not going for it when its a possible runout.


OTOH I am losing more games... is this something I should just live with until my runouts come at a higher %? or should I play competitively at worse skill than I practice at, trying for runouts in practice but always playing safe early against others?


If playing someone who can't run out 50% of their games, is it better to let them try to runout(leaving 5-6 of your balls on the table) and hope that they clear the table for you to run it?

I can't figure out how to use my improved game at the table, as it only seems to get me in trouble atm.... any advice on how to get past this stage would be helpful.

Thanks!

There is an old saying, " A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". Often in this game, our new knowledge can get us into ral trouble.

Keep working at it it will all come together for you. One day it will go off like a light bulb and you will be there. The other side is that one day the light switch will go the "off" position and the struggle returns. For many, this struggle continues for long periods. Meanwhile, the knowledge you have gathered will help you through the "off" times.

This game is not an exact science by any means of the imagination. I heard someone say years ago, that he could teach someone to play this game in about 20 minutes and after that, it will drive you crazy for about 40-50 years.
For most, there is a lot of truth in that.

My advice is keep working at all aspects of the game and come back and look ay your post here in about one year amd gauge your own awareness and improvements.

I'm a bit like you though as I live by a prayer, " God please give me patience and give it to me now!"

 

[kaznj]

When you make improvements in your game it sometimes take a while to put it all together. Stay with it. Keep working at it. Sometimes playing safe in not giving up the edge. Good safety play can give you more control over the game and your opponent. The key word here is good safety play. This is especially true if you are playing in a bar league. The 8 ball bible calls this one ball hell. You run six balls and fail to get on the seventh or the 8 ball. Good luck. Don't get frustrated. A seed will eventually grow into a flower if given time.

 

[ShootingArts]

SJM is correct

Read over SJM's post and think about it. A big part of pattern play is running the balls and setting up so that you can play zone shape. Precision shape is nice and is always the goal but approaching shape as close along the line of the next shot as possible is usually the way to play shape. Crossing this line at a near right angle requires much more precise shape.

Do you consider all of your options for getting shape? Many players learn draw and get so hooked on draw that they largely forget about follow and rarely use it. Perhaps the most common mistake I see in intermediate to advanced players is trying draw when using follow is the easier shot.

Hu

 

[ironman]

Read over SJM's post and think about it. A big part of pattern play is running the balls and setting up so that you can play zone shape. Precision shape is nice and is always the goal but approaching shape as close along the line of the next shot as possible is usually the way to play shape. Crossing this line at a near right angle requires much more precise shape.

Do you consider all of your options for getting shape? Many players learn draw and get so hooked on draw that they largely forget about follow and rarely use it. Perhaps the most common mistake I see in intermediate to advanced players is trying draw when using follow is the easier shot.

Hu

A very good point. As Ronnie Allen said, if you keep em away from the bottom of the cue ball, 90% can't play dead.

 

[hang-the-9]

I believe I know the answer but would like to hear what you all think.

This is an 8ball question(in league play).

First let me say I am a better position, pattern, strategy and safety player than I am shotmaker. I'll often miss difficult cuts, but if I start with a decent shot I can get shape on the rest no problem. Even with one or two breakouts, I can usually get out or play safe early.


Recently I've actually seen my game step up, so I can see the runout a lot more than I used to. Where before I might shy away from a breakout or difficult position, I am getting to the point where I can get out or very close.


It seems now that I am going for the run out, some bad shape, unlucky breakout or other type of mistake will leave myself with 1-2 balls on the table and leave the opponent a run out.

Now, I could say the solution is to play safe in each run to not get so far ahead of the opponent, but that seems like I am not gaining advantage of any new skill i've worked on, instead relying on my old game.

I have a hard time playing safe when i can "see" the runout and know its possible without any mistakes, and it seems like I would be stunting my progress by not going for it when its a possible runout.


OTOH I am losing more games... is this something I should just live with until my runouts come at a higher %? or should I play competitively at worse skill than I practice at, trying for runouts in practice but always playing safe early against others?


If playing someone who can't run out 50% of their games, is it better to let them try to runout(leaving 5-6 of your balls on the table) and hope that they clear the table for you to run it?

I can't figure out how to use my improved game at the table, as it only seems to get me in trouble atm.... any advice on how to get past this stage would be helpful.

Thanks!

Ah, the dangers of being *almost* good enough to run out :wink: . If you are up against a decent player that knows the game of 8-ball, leaving 1-2 of yours up with all of his on the table is disaster. I would go the try the run out way during practice or with friends, and keep managing the table more during a match. If your league alows the called safe while pocketing a ball, that helps a lot. It allows you to play safe, while at the same time clearing out a possible blocking balls.

At least if you miss late in the game in 8-ball your opponent has to shoot at his first. I can't count how many times I lost games and sets due to ratteling a 8 or 9 in 9-ball. You run 7 or 8, the other guy gets to sink a hanger. Then you have to listen to how good they are to beat you

 

[Pushout]

If you're having a problem with 8 ball {ugh}, try not playing it for a while. Concentrate on the other games for a week or two, then give it another shot {if you must}. Sorry, I hate the game.

 

[leehayes]

I believe I know the answer but would like to hear what you all think.

This is an 8ball question(in league play).

First let me say I am a better position, pattern, strategy and safety player than I am shotmaker. I'll often miss difficult cuts, but if I start with a decent shot I can get shape on the rest no problem. Even with one or two breakouts, I can usually get out or play safe early.


Recently I've actually seen my game step up, so I can see the runout a lot more than I used to. Where before I might shy away from a breakout or difficult position, I am getting to the point where I can get out or very close.


It seems now that I am going for the run out, some bad shape, unlucky breakout or other type of mistake will leave myself with 1-2 balls on the table and leave the opponent a run out.

Now, I could say the solution is to play safe in each run to not get so far ahead of the opponent, but that seems like I am not gaining advantage of any new skill i've worked on, instead relying on my old game.

I have a hard time playing safe when i can "see" the runout and know its possible without any mistakes, and it seems like I would be stunting my progress by not going for it when its a possible runout.


OTOH I am losing more games... is this something I should just live with until my runouts come at a higher %? or should I play competitively at worse skill than I practice at, trying for runouts in practice but always playing safe early against others?


If playing someone who can't run out 50% of their games, is it better to let them try to runout(leaving 5-6 of your balls on the table) and hope that they clear the table for you to run it?

I can't figure out how to use my improved game at the table, as it only seems to get me in trouble atm.... any advice on how to get past this stage would be helpful.

Thanks!

Hey guy. Just to let you know. I was in this exact same spot a few months ago. Great at position play etc. and had issues with plain ole shot making. I took some lessons to work on my stroke and a miraculous thing happened. I not only got much better at my shot making but my position play improved as well. Added to that was that I started to really be much better because position play and shotmaking made for easier run outs. I still don't run out the best but I am much better than I was at this time last year.
All I can suggest is a couple of stroke lessons and keeping with it.

 

[tucson9ball]

8 ball

I believe I know the answer but would like to hear what you all think.

This is an 8ball question(in league play).

First let me say I am a better position, pattern, strategy and safety player than I am shotmaker. I'll often miss difficult cuts, but if I start with a decent shot I can get shape on the rest no problem. Even with one or two breakouts, I can usually get out or play safe early.


Recently I've actually seen my game step up, so I can see the runout a lot more than I used to. Where before I might shy away from a breakout or difficult position, I am getting to the point where I can get out or very close.


It seems now that I am going for the run out, some bad shape, unlucky breakout or other type of mistake will leave myself with 1-2 balls on the table and leave the opponent a run out.

Now, I could say the solution is to play safe in each run to not get so far ahead of the opponent, but that seems like I am not gaining advantage of any new skill i've worked on, instead relying on my old game.

I have a hard time playing safe when i can "see" the runout and know its possible without any mistakes, and it seems like I would be stunting my progress by not going for it when its a possible runout.


OTOH I am losing more games... is this something I should just live with until my runouts come at a higher %? or should I play competitively at worse skill than I practice at, trying for runouts in practice but always playing safe early against others?


If playing someone who can't run out 50% of their games, is it better to let them try to runout(leaving 5-6 of your balls on the table) and hope that they clear the table for you to run it?

I can't figure out how to use my improved game at the table, as it only seems to get me in trouble atm.... any advice on how to get past this stage would be helpful.

Thanks!

I've read all these posts and nobody has mentioned, getting trouble balls out very early in the run. I try to get the trouble in the first 2 shots. If you get down to 3 or 4 balls and there is no way of breaking up a trouble ball, then start looking for the lock-em-up-safety. You never want to get to the last ball or 2 and have no way out. This is what I call 8 ball suicide. If your opponent has decent skills, you will never see a good shot again.
Hope this helps to improve your win percentage. On bar box 8 ball it's not always the best shot maker that wins, sometimes you can outsmart em.
Good luck and keep strokin......

 

[sjm]

I've read all these posts and nobody has mentioned, getting trouble balls out very early in the run.

This is just one aspect of pattern play, and a few of us in this thread have wondered whether this isn't an area needing improvement. Still, you make an excellent point and a good recommendation.

 

[mooseman]

I'm encountering similar problems. How can you hook yourself with only one ball on the table? Or I will fall just short or just long or leave myself absolutely straight in after going around 3 rails. I call it the pool gods. Talk with QBilder and he will tell you I am perhaps the "UNLUCKIEST" player in the world. We have discussed this and I am trying to work on it. Ultimately my problem is I just don't get enough table time so my speed control is off. I think my luck factor is worse when I have to go up and down the table (thin cut) and all is going well until I carom off 2 balls and scratch.

Meanwhile my opponent will go six times round the table and end up with a perfect shot in a 3 inch window between balls. Talk about frustrating......

 

[MacGyver]

I normally don't like bumping a dead thread, but I thought i'd give a quick update in case anyone else in similar situation happens upon the beginning of the thread.

So about 2 weeks ago(roughly 2 months from thread post), I was moved up to an apa6 and so far have won 5-nothing against a 6 and 5, and a close loss hill/hill against apa7.

It was definitely a transitioning period, and after moving past the hump of about 1month-1.5months, I noticed my percentage of getting out went up a decent bit, and with being mindful of when to play safe early, my winning percentage as gone back up as well.

Not having to worry about moving up to a 6 also clears my mind a bit, leaving me more peace of mind to go for the runout(while more pressure, which i thrive on, for running out since harder races).

Focusing on the fundamentals and basic speed control is really the only factor, I am hooking myself a lot less and its translating into more wins!