Biggest League Handicap Likely?

[tenzip]

What would be, from your experience or knowledge, the biggest handicap (# of balls) in a 14.1 league format?

I have been in communication with Ingo Burk, the man who wrote the score keeping app Fortune 14/1 for Android devices.

While the app works great, the limit on the handicap is 50 balls, which will become a problem soon for our league. Also, the score and handicap counters go by 5 ball increments, which is also a problem for us, as our handicap goes by increments of 3.

Ingo is kind enough to have offered to tweak a special version for me, but doesn't plan to put it on the Android Play store due to lack of interest in the app. :frown:

He has a free version, limited to 20 innings, and a paid version, for the huge sum of, ONE dollar and FIVE cents.

It also tracks stats for 8, 9, and 10 ball, if you need that. (I haven't tried those functions.)

So, my question, after all the above, is, what is the biggest handicap you'd be likely to see in league play?

 

[tenzip]

While I'm still interested in any answers you folks might have, I told Ingo to just make the max score and max handicap 500. I would hope that would cover any eventuality.

 

[dmgwalsh]

In the Red Shoes Monday night league, there were a few guys with 50. That is the lowest we let them go, no matter what. We used to let them go lower and some were around 25 or 30. I believe Ed Latimer was going to something like 210 or 220, so he would have been spotting the 50 handicap guy about 160 or 170 balls. But we capped the games at 150, so we would bring Ed down to 150 and then the other guy would play the same percentage of his handicap so the spot was probably over 100 anyway.

 

[tenzip]

Thanks, Dennis. That's about what I thought.

 

[AtLarge]

... Ingo is kind enough to have offered to tweak a special version for me, but doesn't plan to put it on the Android Play store due to lack of interest in the app. :frown: ...

Why would anyone want to use electronic devices when playing 14.1? Seems like an intrusion to me. It's an old, simple game. All that's needed is beads or scoring wheels. Paper and pencil is a good pairing sometimes, too. The world is too much with us. A pool room should be a place to escape from all the cell phones, ipads, computers, tvs, video games, ................

But don't mind me; carry on. I've got some stuff to do on this here sighburrspace thingy.

 

[Bob Jewett]

What would be, from your experience or knowledge, the biggest handicap (# of balls) in a 14.1 league format? ...

In the league semi-final one year, I was giving up 120-15. I've also played a match at 140-20.

Here is a description of a 14.1 handicap league setup: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2003-06.pdf
It's free and it's simple enough that you don't need any app for it. Here are some more handicapping charts so you can make up any match lengths you want:
http://www.sfbilliards.com/14.1_charts.htm

Here is the web site of a league that uses something like the charts above: https://sites.google.com/site/aspa141/

In many leagues there are not enough players to divide into skill divisions, so you have to figure out a way to make matches interesting for the lower-ranked players. The above system, if you apply the adjustments as described, will get each match to about an even proposition -- that is, it is a 100% handicap situation.

Some good players don't like this. They feel they should always beat the weak players like red-headed mules. I feel differently -- the 100% handicapping method above rewards those players who are improving. In the long run it gives the biggest rewards to those who improve faster than the rest of the people in the league.

One solution to do something extra for the better players is to have a special "masters" event at the end of the season either without handicaps or with only partial handicaps.

Another is to arrange the league handicaps to give about a 60-40 edge to the better player. I think this is the way this league works: http://www.fargobilliards.com/pool-tournaments/straight-pool/ In that league, the largest listed spot is 125-14.

 

[tenzip]

Thank you both, gentlemen.

@AtLarge, I understand what you're saying, but I'm a tech geek. Electronics are in my blood.

I can't ever see using electronics to augment or play the game, but scoring? Absolutely. I have used the beads, but prefer this.

The app gives you an inning by inning breakdown of safeties, fouls, misses, runs, etc. At the end of the game, you get a line graph for both players, innings vs. score.

I think it's freaking awesome.

And some places don't have counters, on the table or beads. In that case, it just replaces the paper.

And yes, I do turn my ringer off during a game.

 

[mikepage]

[...]

Another is to arrange the league handicaps to give about a 60-40 edge to the better player. I think this is the way this league works: http://www.fargobilliards.com/pool-tournaments/straight-pool/ In that league, the largest listed spot is 125-14.

Though I've neglected to update the website, we have 20 people playing right now. The largest handicap right now is 125 to 14 or 15.

In our handicapped 8-ball tournament, we give a modest edge to the higher-rated player. Here, though, the games are fairly handicapped.

I should clarify, though, that it is and isn't a handicapped league.

If, based on our rating difference, Bob is supposed to go to 125 and I am supposed to go to 82, then here is the way it works:

We play an unhandicapped match to 125. The winner gets a point.

If Bob wins and holds me below 82, he gets two points.

If Bob wins 125 to 110, we each get a point.

If I win the match to 125, I get two points.

The better players are more likely to win the match overall, and in that sense our format favors the higher-rated player. But the second point depends on who is "on," and makes for drama in every match.

Te format is pretty popular.

 

[tenzip]

Thank you Mike.

This is our first season of Straight Pool leagues, and it's an experiment. Some people are more vocal, but everyone seems to be enjoying playing a great game in a competitive league.

I hope we can make some changes for the next go-round that will make it even better.

 

[mnhighrunlist]

We always try to split our players into separate divisions based on player ratings. Usually 600 and above ratings and below 600 in the other division. I believe it makes for more interesting matches (closer ball spot). If we had games played, say to 150-15, the 150 player would have to play such an ultra conservative safe game for fear that one small mistake could cost him/her the game.

 

[Bob Jewett]

We always try to split our players into separate divisions based on player ratings. Usually 600 and above ratings and below 600 in the other division. I believe it makes for more interesting matches (closer ball spot). If we had games played, say to 150-15, the 150 player would have to play such an ultra conservative safe game for fear that one small mistake could cost him/her the game.

When I played a game like that I did change my strategy some, but I can't afford to take a lot of innings, either. It's just a matter of time until you leave a dead ball on a safe play.

Unfortunately, the leagues around here do not have enough players to divide into divisions.

 

[tenzip]

We always try to split our players into separate divisions based on player ratings. Usually 600 and above ratings and below 600 in the other division. I believe it makes for more interesting matches (closer ball spot). If we had games played, say to 150-15, the 150 player would have to play such an ultra conservative safe game for fear that one small mistake could cost him/her the game.

When I played a game like that I did change my strategy some, but I can't afford to take a lot of innings, either. It's just a matter of time until you leave a dead ball on a safe play.

Unfortunately, the leagues around here do not have enough players to divide into divisions.

We had 24 players, so 2 divisions, split by ability, more or less.

Myself and the other organizer, (POCKETWOLF here on AZ), flipped a coin to see which of us was going to be getting our ass kicked in the upper division. He "won".

Now we're just starting our 5th week, and one division is already at least a week behind, because of folks going to play VNEA nationals in Vegas. But we can live with that.

I just played a match the other day, giving 40 on the wire to my opponent, played substantially below my normal speed, and won 114 to 104. (But it didn't feel like a victory, because I know I can play better.)

Thank you both for your posts.

 

[John Biddle]

My 2¢ from Strokers in Palm Harbor

We have had a straight pool league here for at least 3 years with 3 seasons per year. Started out with a dozen players and now up to 36.

Each person has a handicap and the match is determined as follows:

• Handicaps run from 120 to 750 currently, with higher numbers assigned to better skill levels. The top number could go higher. In an early season, Tony Crosby had to give me 150 - 40. I was the only one to beat him that season.

• If the player with the higher handicap number (better player) has a handicap of 400 or greater, that player goes to 150, otherwise (s)he goes to 100.

• The lower handicap player's target is the ratio of his handicap to that of the higher skilled player's, time the opponent's target or 150 or 100.

• There is a chart on the wall eliminating the need for math skills.

So, if my handicap is 450 and I'm playing a 300, I'll go to 150 and he goes to 100. If a 360 is playing a 120, the better skilled player goes to 100 and the opponent 33.

This works well, with minor issues.

• New players to the league get handicaps that may not yet accurately reflect their skill level, giving them an advantage (or putting them at a disadvantage) until the handicap adjusts with their play.

• Though we have enough players to split on skill level, we didn't because management thought (based on a prior experience) that the lowest level folks in the upper group and the highest levels folks in the lower level group wouldn't be happy. There was disagreement about this, but it was minor.

• A good player who plays other games but not straight pool is at a disadvantage for a little while. They'd get an initial handicap based on their known overall ability but need time to pick up the nuances of the game which their handicap would expect them to already know.

I'm only an OK player (top run of 39 but only infrequently in the 20s) and I've had 2 matches where I had to give an opponent more than 100. These are the matches that keep many better players from joining up. I like the idea that the player who plays best relative to their normal game is likely to win.

We all pay $7 per match, and there is a large prize pool for our end of season playoff tournament. The top prize has been $600 the last 3 seasons but as more have joined we've flattened the prize distribution somewhat, rather than maximize the top prize. Most are very happy with the arrangement.

Now, on to the OPs actual question. I just bought a new Sero 7 Pro tablet (Android) and will be buying the mentioned app today and trying it out in my match tonight. For us, if it'll handle 150 on the wire we're covered.

BTW, I've been away from AZB awhile; what do the silver and gold member badges signify?

 

[AtLarge]

... BTW, I've been away from AZB awhile; what do the silver and gold member badges signify?

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4166180&postcount=3

 

[Rich93]

In the Red Shoes Monday night league, there were a few guys with 50. That is the lowest we let them go, no matter what. We used to let them go lower and some were around 25 or 30. I believe Ed Latimer was going to something like 210 or 220, so he would have been spotting the 50 handicap guy about 160 or 170 balls. But we capped the games at 150, so we would bring Ed down to 150 and then the other guy would play the same percentage of his handicap so the spot was probably over 100 anyway.

A couple of thoughts. It can be pretty frustrating for a good player like Ed Latimer, whose last handicap at Red Shoes was 235, to have to play someone with a 50 handicap. Because the maximum game is to 150, Ed would play a 50 guy 150-32 and he found that pretty frustrating. He still had good records and often won prize money, but giving away so many balls took a lot of the fun out of it. When another alternative became available (the Red Shoes non-handicapped Wednesday night league), he left the handicapped league.

I think a lot of good players feel the way Ed does. Maybe it's psychological in some way I don't understand. After all, the handicapping makes it a fair contest, and a good player going to 150 gets a lot more table time than the player going to 32. You'd think the lesser skilled player would be the one frustrated - they miss and their butt's back in the chair for a good while - but that's not been my experience. It's the good player who gets frustrated. Maybe when your opponent's only going to 32 and they catch a lucky break, or you catch an unlucky one, it stings a little more.

The Illinois Billiard Club has had enough players to divide into two divisions by skill level, and that works well. I never did that at Red Shoes even when the fall league was large enough to do it (it formerly had about 24 players), because I surveyed the players and a majority favored the "everybody plays everybody" tradition. But quite a few of the good players bolted, like Ed, when another alternative became available. I recommend that any new league large enough to divide by skill level do so before the "everybody plays everybody" tradition has a chance to take hold.

It must be said, however, that there were other reasons to leave the handicapped league for the non-handicapped. The latter is cheaper ($10 vs. $20), there's less of a time investment (one game matches instead of two), and there's the opportunity to play guys like Bobby Hunter and Tom Karabatsos.

The handicapping system has worked well. If you win both your games in a match your handicap goes up by 5 balls, if you lose both it decreases by 5, if you split it stays the same. Because of the adjustments we seldom see lopsided winning records unless the player is rapidly improving, and has happened only twice in the 3 years I've been administering the league (one was a 16 year old who's now become one of the best pool players in Chicago).

 

[Bob Jewett]

...

• The lower handicap player's target is the ratio of his handicap to that of the higher skilled player's, time the opponent's target or 150 or 100.

• There is a chart on the wall eliminating the need for math skills.

...

The system I linked to above does that ratio with subtraction by having the logarithm of the players' "level" as their rating number. Most people can subtract with a couple of tries. Two players 100 points apart play at 2:1 regardless of their ratings. That might be 140:70 if the better player is stronger or 80:40 if they are both weaker. Or maybe 60:30 if they are even weaker.