Bizarre league situation, how would you handle?

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Softballmvp

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Wednesday night is our VNEA league. Thursday night is our ISPA league, which was formerly BCA. Both leagues are 4 person teams. Team A (players 1,2,3,4) is playing Team B (players 5,6,7,8) for the VNEA league Wed night. Also, Team A is playing an ISPA make up match with Team C from a match that could not be played by either team from a previous week due to a regional tournament. Team C does not shoot VNEA on Wednesdays and agreed to play their makeup match around Team A’s match with Team B last night. The VNEA match was to have priority since it was the scheduled match but both matches are being played simultaneously on separate tables (1 table for each league) but the ISPA match starts first due to a player from Team B being late.

A few games in player 3 from Team A is shooting his 1st ISPA game, the game is not a quick game. Meanwhile after a couple quick games, player 7 from team B is next up in the VNEA match to also play player 3 in their respective 1st game in that league. Player 7 says something to player 3 from a distance, but player 3 who is focused on his ISPA game, had no idea what player 7 said and had no idea he was up on the VNEA table. Player 7 racks and breaks (rack your own league) and runs down to 1 ball left before missing. Then the VNEA game sits for 5+ minutes while player 3 is still playing his ISPA game. That game concludes, and player 3 comes back to the team where he is told he is up on the VNEA table right now. Player 3 goes over to the VNEA table thinking it’s a brand new game that has not started yet, has no idea the other player broke and ran down. He rakes all the balls to start racking thinking it’s his break (he had broken his ISPA match as a visiting team, but was not the breaker in the VNEA match in which he was home team but didn’t realize it). But as stated it should have been his turn with 7 stripes left on the table and his opponent having 1 solid left. What should be done in this situation? Should the balls be attempted to be spotted back where they were? Should it be a rerack? Should it be a forfeit of game? The table in question was VNEA league.

Other facts which probably shouldn’t matter: player 3 is a strong player who has high probability of winning the VNEA game 10-6 (point based league) if he had not committed the error. Player 7 is the player that was late to league, and the VNEA match had already played games out of order (agreed by both teams) due to the circumstances of having 2 matches going at once, and because player 7 was late. So playing another game out of order due to player 3 still shooting ISPA could have been agreed upon.

I won’t post yet what was decided until after some opinions are received. Don’t want to sway people’s thoughts.
 
I wouldn't ever accept a table handed to me that was broken while I wasn't there to watch.

It's unacceptable that this player didn't even know his opponent was playing the game without him. (regardless of why that player wasn't at the table.)

I can't even think what league would consider this acceptable.

If the breaking player really was set on being a dick, he should have just put the guy playing on the other table on the time limit as specified by the rules of that league.

If those rules don't exist, to bad so sad, play other players who aren't tied up.

EDIT: not only that, both teams agreed to work around this match, there shouldn't be an argument at all.
 
Ok, so given your opinion supergreenman, do you think it should have been a 10-0 forfeit (or unsportsmanlike) win based on what did happen?
 
Based on personal experience, his opponent's teammates probably told him to go ahead and break. He should know better than to just walk up to a table and rake the balls. I have a very hard time believing that nobody said anything to him to the affect of it being his turn to shoot. You can't penalize the guy that broke and ran down to his last ball because the opponent couldn't be bothered with knowing what's going on. Seriously, if his other game was taking 10 minutes, he should've had enough sense to look over and see what's going on.

Edit: That said, I'd probably make my decision based on the opponent's attitude. Bad or stupid attitude, I'd take the game. If he really felt bad, I may choose to rebreak.
 
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Player 3 was like in shock, just had no idea that the game was going on already. Player 7 (the breaker) was perfectly fine rebreaking. But his captain jumped in and stated what if there is a rebreak and he breaks dry and then player 3 runs out and wins. To which our team replied then we will give you 6 balls for certain from the break and run down on the 1st attempt. Their captain was not ok with that and stated the game would be a 10-0 forfeit.

At that point, things did not go so smoothly the rest of the night.

As for the player breaking to begin with. He was the guy who showed up late, and we had already played around him once. So I think he had just got there and was like, oh, I better get my game going. But I wasn't seated by them to know for sure how it played out for him to start breaking. But we would have been fine (of course) with playing out of order again.
 
I should add that the other team's captain did speak to a few people not involved with the match before coming up with that decision.
 
League works best when people are flexible and understanding. It was an honest mistake and I don't think anyone was especially inconsiderate or out of line. IMO replay the rack. If the shooter is the equivalent of like an apa 3 he might be upset cuz six balls is a miracle run for him. But anyone stronger should welcome the "Mulligan" and a free stab at running out.


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CreeDo said:
League works best when people are flexible and understanding. It was an honest mistake and I don't think anyone was especially inconsiderate or out of line. IMO replay the rack. If the shooter is the equivalent of like an apa 3 he might be upset cuz six balls is a miracle run for him. But anyone stronger should welcome the "Mulligan" and a free stab at running out.
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The only problem is that when you get to the other end of the spectrum, where you are playing strong APA 6s and above, a dry break can be a big swing.
 
boblzer0 said:
Yeah I totally agree with this. If the guy broke while I was shooting another match that's considered practice.
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I have to wonder if he ran out and put the 8 in the wrong pocket would he have stated that he lost while the other player wasn't there? Or would he have called it "practice".
 
A similar situation with a very important difference happened to me in league play.
My opponent and I started the match and in the second rack I broke and ran until I scratched while shooting at the last ball before the 8. My opponent was not paying any attention to the match, standing with his teammates and joking, drinking, etc. I turned away from the table and took a drink of my beer, and turned around to see my opponent raking the balls to the end of the table (which was very strange as it is not rack your own.) I asked him what was going on and he stated he was taking the win since I scratched on the 8 ball (we are a points based league and you can choose to run out on an opponent 8 ball scratch.) I informed him that I had in fact scratched on my last ball before the 8 and basically he had just forfeited the rack. An argument ensued, a call to the league office, and it was determined that since we couldn't reconstruct the table as it was, it was in fact a forfeit.
That being said - the difference was my opponent was aware the match had started and just hadn't been paying attention. In this case from the OP I think the rack should be re-racked because both participants were not there - which begs the question....how did they determine whose break it was if one of the participants wasn't aware it was going on?
 
In our leagues the break is predetermined depending on if you are the visiting or home team. Visiting team breaks 1st and 3rd rounds. Home team breaks 2nd and 4th rounds.
 
You think that is bad!

I was playing a race to 7 for $100, and my opponent just broke the balls on the first game. I went to get a Diet Dr Pepper and some quarters, and when I got back, he made the last 2 balls of a rack, and I was down 0-4. A friend of mine said everything was Kosher, that he had made some combos, but I sure would of liked to have seen them. I lost that set, but I won the other 4 sets.
 
Snapshot9 said:
I was playing a race to 7 for $100, and my opponent just broke the balls on the first game. I went to get a Diet Dr Pepper and some quarters, and when I got back, he made the last 2 balls of a rack, and I was down 0-4. A friend of mine said everything was Kosher, that he had made some combos, but I sure would of liked to have seen them. I lost that set, but I won the other 4 sets.
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Did you have to go mint the quarters yourself or what?
 
I think it is player 3's fault for not asking when coming over to the table.

He has been away.....he knows that the matches are being altered to compensate for two different leagues of play.

It is similar to a "ball in hand" situation. you NEVER automatically just assume that you have BIH when an alleged foul occurs. You always ask first.

I don't know what the ruling would be for this instance, but I think player 3 is in error.

JMO
 
Banks said:
The only problem is that when you get to the other end of the spectrum, where you are playing strong APA 6s and above, a dry break can be a big swing.
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That's true, and part of me wanted to suggest "and he gets first shot no matter what to keep it fair" but that would be kind of goofy. It wouldn't be a real game of 8b.

I guess it comes down to how much of a hardass you wanna be. It's absolutely within a player's right to say "loss of game" and just take the free win. If you don't want to do that, then replay is the only reasonable solution.

I also personally would risk the dry break if I got another try to run out. The numbers probably say that's not wise, but it's the kind of gamble that pays off big if you succeed.
 
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