Bob Knight & Position Play

Mark Avlon said:
I agree that practice should be challenging, but not so difficult that it is unlikely that you can successfully accomplish the task. It is also important to know your limitations (margin of error).

Well designed progressive practice drills can provide both. They are great for improving skills and once you find the point where you're 50% successful, you will know what your chances are for success when shooting a given shot.

While practicing position on a dime provides a clear goal, whether you land on the dime or not should not be the measure of success. If it is, it will only lead to frustration. Instead, you should use this type of drill to determine you margin of error. You can then practice to reduce the margin of error.

Practice should be structured and goal oriented. Goals should be Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, and Timely (SMART). For example, "My goal is to develop the skills to stop the cue ball within the width of a ball in 1 month." You need to also identify what might keep you from attaining your goal. Do you know what must happen to cause the cue ball to stop? Are you mechanics accurate and consistent enough? Is your speed control accurate and consistent enough? If an answer is no, then you have to work on that piece of the puzzle in order to reach your goal.
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I agree with Mark. Trying to stop "on a dime" is a good practice theory, but, should not be a situation whereas you frustrate yourself while trying to get the perfect position on a shot.

Making your position Attainable and Realistic is the key. Also, trying other position routes is a good idea. But, put that "other" route within a logical thought process.

When trying other position routes to get into tighter areas, pick a shot that brings you into the position zone instead of across it. See the diagram below.

CueTable Help



If you make logical route choices when choosing these "other" routes, it will not only improve your position play, but, give you a goal that can be achieved.
 
Klockdoc,
thats a good shot to practice. nothing wrong with practicing that shot. but the shot i diagrammed in the initial post needs to be practiced too. like i've repeatedly said, you need to practice all shots with the attitude that you have to have pinpoint dime/credit card cue ball control.

i remember at the BCA tournament in 2001, upstairs at the Penthouse of the Riviera. Steve Tipton made a comment to Loree Jon Jones about a Japanese player (forget his name) along these lines:

"That Fujiyama has the usual attitude that all Asian players have regarding cue ball control. If he doesnt stop it on a dime he is upset with himself."

DCP
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
i had an instructor/pro player tell me one time its one step at a time. first, practice landing the cue ball in a zone. then once proficient at that, practice landing it on a dime.

thoughts?
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DCP,
I'm going to have to say that a lot of this issue depends on how good you want to become. For 9-ball and bar table pool, wide area position may be adequate to become quite a good player. For straight pool, onepocket, or play at a professional level; then ability to play pinpoint position is a MUST.

I would say that your quote above is almost the reverse of the way my professional friends play. On every shot they pick a pinpoint area (smaller than a dime, basically a chalk mark on the cloth) for the cue ball to find; then ask themselves should they err on the side of missing the spot long or short; or should they adjust the target to put it further out into the large area of the wedge shaped zone. You can have it both ways; but I definitely agree with you on the need to develop the ability to hit the small target. A player who can do this has the definite edge over one who cannot; no matter the game.

In addition, the ability to hit this small target in practice is very different from the ability to hit it in competition (much easier in practice without the burden of excessive adrenaline and pressure).

In my opinion, one of the best ways to develop this ability is competitive straight pool (much more fun than drills).
 
Play zones, until you have an understanding of english, speed, and shot making, trying to play pin point acurate position for a lower level player is wrong. Great if they can do it, but dont require them to get onto a credit card on every positional shot, all your teaching is frustration. Didnt I say that already?


SPINDOKTOR
 
those are good points Spindoktor.

i dont normally get frustrated/mad/upset when i miss position on those tight dime/credit card type of position drills that i run. i do, however, get a little ticked when i miss them by a foot or so, or when i actually miss the shot.

saturday afternoon i practiced this shot a little bit, and was consistently getting close to the zones at Position A for the 2-Ball and Position B for the 3-Ball.

CueTable Help

 
SPINDOKTOR said:
Play zones, until you have an understanding of english, speed, and shot making, trying to play pin point acurate position for a lower level player is wrong. Great if they can do it, but dont require them to get onto a credit card on every positional shot, all your teaching is frustration. Didnt I say that already?


SPINDOKTOR
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Dok,
I guess it must depend on the student. I think the business card trick was shown to me in my very first lesson from a top pro player. No one hits the card every time, and no one should be frustrated by the attempts. Attempting it, though, is a great way to develop speed and directional control. It also is one way that the student will learn that there is a tremendous level of precision required to play at a high level - a level of precision that is hidden from many (even good amateur players). If you don't know it exists, then you won't know that you need to achieve it.

I will agree that frustration is bad; but one who becomes frustrated by failing to achieve perfection is a poor student. One who becomes challenged by failing to achieve perfection will be an excellent student.

P.S. - DCP is definitely ready to learn how to play top level pool. Otherwise he wouldn't be wasting all this time here with the rest of us.
 
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Williebetmore said:
Dok,
I guess it must depend on the student. I think the business card trick was shown to me in my very first lesson from a top pro player. No one hits the card every time, and no one should be frustrated by the attempts. Attempting it, though, is a great way to develop speed and directional control. It also is one way that the student will learn that there is a tremendous level of precision required to play at a high level - a level of precision that is hidden from many (even good amateur players). If you don't know it exists, then you won't know that you need to achieve it.

I will agree that frustration is bad; but one who becomes frustrated by failing to achieve perfection is a poor student. One who becomes challenged by failing to achieve perfection will be an excellent student.

P.S. - DCP is definitely ready to learn how to play top level pool. Otherwise he wouldn't be wasting all this time here with the rest of us.
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If he has progressed and has a basic understanding of the game, I agree with you. I dont know his speed, I can only speculate.. If he is ready to take the next step, he needs to do what I was telling him before, find a sparring partener instead of doing drills all the time.. a match is better than any practice IMHO.


I often go to the hall and just banging balls around for awhile, when I have noone to play, anyone watching me would think I was terrible.. The truth is I get so board, I hate trying to practice, Id rather play unless there is a challenge..

When I learned the game I had access to a 5x10, and thats where I learned to pocket. we never used snooker balls, we always use regulation size 2 1/4 I believe. This was a challenge, so I know its important to challenge a player to keep the intrest up, and I suggest If you want to play proffesionaly buy yourself a 5x10. AND DO NOT CHANGE THE RAILS. you'll be glad you did the first tournament you win. there is your challenge, and if you dont want one, buy me one, I'll play on it daily.



SPINDOKTOR
 
DCP, a just a few thoughs to share.
Practice....
should be challenging, but enjoyable.
needs to be structured so that you can measure your progress.
should center on reinforcing good habits and discarding bad habits.
should challenge your current level of play, but not overpower it.

I'm not sure how practice can every be harder than match time, since you don't have all the pressure during practice. However, if you can land on a credit card or something smaller with frequency, then you should be practicing landing on a dime. If you cannot yet land on a sheet of paper with frequency, you shouldn't be practicing landing on something smaller.
Have fun.
F4P
 
...I've practiced position like this using Target Pool. It's basically a target (and a half-target for near rails) and a book full of shots broken into 10-shot drills. The targets are pretty big, but have scoring rings.

The drills included cover a LOT (most!) of possible situations in terms of position play. The scoring gives you better feedback on how your practice is going.

No, I don't know where to buy Target Pool.

-s

edit: seeing fool4pool's post above, I'd like to add, target pool meets all four of his guidelines :)

edit edit: http://cgi.ebay.com/Target-Pool-by-...ryZ21212QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
 
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I would have taken it 1 rail straight up and down, then cut the 2 in the corner playing the 7 in the same corner and the 9 in the opposite corner...using the least rails possible...
 
Congrats steev...

steev said:
...I've practiced position like this using Target Pool. It's basically a target (and a half-target for near rails) and a book full of shots broken into 10-shot drills. The targets are pretty big, but have scoring rings.

The drills included cover a LOT (most!) of possible situations in terms of position play. The scoring gives you better feedback on how your practice is going.

No, I don't know where to buy Target Pool.

-s

edit: seeing fool4pool's post above, I'd like to add, target pool meets all four of his guidelines :)

edit edit: http://cgi.ebay.com/Target-Pool-by-...ryZ21212QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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...for having productive practice sessions. I hope I don't have to play you anytime soon!:)
 
There's no need to abandon smart position play in order to practice pinpoint position accuracy - practice both at the same time by aiming for a specific pinpoint spot within the "smart zone". This is a well known and often recommended practice principle.

pj
chgo
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
i think everybody else is missing the point. on any shot - i repeat - on ANY SHOT you have to put the cue ball somewhere. and if its the ABSOLUTE CORRECT shot to play you still want to be accurate with the cue ball!

so, therefore, you should practice putting the cue ball on a dime/credit card when you shoot that ABSOLUTE BEST/CORRECT shot - not just landing it somewhere near it.

as you say, sometimes the Best shot is the Only shot, and the landing zone might be narrow. thats why you need to practice pin point cue ball control.

yes, knowing what shot is the BEST shot is vitally important. but you need to practice pin point cue ball control on those shots also. i cant make it any more plain and simple than that.

DCP
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I think you're missing the point. If you play the proper patterns the chances you'll need pinpoint CB placement are minimal.

If you play the wrong patterns and play for shape where you only have a narrow window to hit your object ball, my bet is that you're going to miss it no matter how much you practice to put the ball on a dime.
 
Williebetmore said:
DCP is definitely ready to learn how to play top level pool. Otherwise he wouldn't be wasting all this time here with the rest of us.
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thanks for the kind words Willie. so very true. just wish i could nudge the game up a notch or two. doubt i will ever get there though. but i am going to keep trying. trying by working on all those methods that Tom Rossman, Diana Minor, Mark Wilson, and Scott Lee have shown me over the years.

DCP
 
supergreenman said:
I think you're missing the point. If you play the proper patterns the chances you'll need pinpoint CB placement are minimal.

If you play the wrong patterns and play for shape where you only have a narrow window to hit your object ball, my bet is that you're going to miss it no matter how much you practice to put the ball on a dime.
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nope.

once again, people fail to realize what i am saying. doesnt it make sense that everybody that plays the game wants to get optimal cue ball position on EACH AND EVERY SHOT THEY TAKE - PERIOD!!!

EVEN IF YOU PLAY THE PROPER PATTERN AND TAKE THE CORRECT SHOT - DONT YOU WANT TO GET PERFECT PINPOINT POSITION?

geez folks, dont you? even if the position zone is somewhat big, dont you want to get the optimal position in that zone???

DCP
 
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DrCue'sProtege said:
geez folks, dont you? even if the position zone is somewhat big, dont you want to get the optimal position in that zone???

DCP
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The first thing straight-poolers learn in their struggle to reduce risk; is that you don't "want an angle" on every shot; it's that you want the "perfect angle" on every shot - it markedly reduces your risk. The area of position for the perfect angle is usually fairly small; while the acceptable area is fairly big. The difference between the 2 can mean the difference between being able to use pocket speed or having to pound the ball (or conversely having to let whitey fly because you got too much angle).

To avoid putting pressure on your shotmaking; it is best to get that perfect angle. If you are not even trying for it (or even looking to see what it would be), you are missing out on a vital game improvement tool.

P.S. - it is easy to define the perfect angle; it is the angle that maximizes your chances of pocketing the ball while allowing you the minimum force necessary to achieve position on the next ball.

P.P.S. - I have been working on this for a couple of years and I can tell you that just looking to see what the perfect angle would be is a GREAT tool for improving. Often the perfect angle is just as easy to obtain as "any old angle"; but if you don't calculate it, and shoot for it you will just have to accept the less than perfect alternative. One of my instructor's just calls it mental laziness to not even look for the perfect angle. It costs nothing.
 
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DrCue'sProtege said:
EVEN IF YOU PLAY THE PROPER PATTERN AND TAKE THE CORRECT SHOT - DONT YOU WANT TO GET PERFECT PINPOINT POSITION?
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Yes. The target should be a specific spot with the goal of landing on it. To do otherwise reinforces sloppy habits that will cost you. The spot you choose should allow you the largest margin of error because your accuracy and consistency has a margin of error. Your target should have a larger margin of error that you to ensure success.

How long or how many tries did it take you to become somewhat consistent in landing in zone for the 2 and then the 3? In a game situation, if the landing zone was another diamond away, would you be able to make it on your only try? I doubt it. Your shot is simply a speed control shot, and I think it's an inefficient way to improve your skills and success in a game.
 
Mark Avlon said:
How long or how many tries did it take you to become somewhat consistent in landing in zone for the 2 and then the 3? In a game situation, if the landing zone was another diamond away, would you be able to make it on your only try? I doubt it. Your shot is simply a speed control shot, and I think it's an inefficient way to improve your skills and success in a game.
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with that small of a landing zone i dont get exactly where i want too often. and i dont practice this EXACT shot every night, but rather similar type shots. the next time i practice this shot the landing zone might be a few inches difference, one way or another.

and yes, it is pretty much a speed control shot. but isnt speed control EXTREMELY important to having pinpoint dime/credit card control?

if its an inefficient way to improve skills, can you offer an alternative? i'd certainly be willing to see what you have to offer here.

DCP
 
An alternative

DrCue'sProtege said:
if its an inefficient way to improve skills, can you offer an alternative? i'd certainly be willing to see what you have to offer here.

DCP
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Yeah, practice position areas that I had suggested earlier. This one is difficult also, but could of practical use in a game. Your pinpoint attempts could be utilized trying to hit the 1st diamond below the side in order to come up to the correct window.

Blackjack's suggestion is by far the best one for this situation.

I do not understand why you would even attempt practicing position on a shot
that you probably would never, or, should never be attempted in a game..:confused:

Are you playing for "show" or for the dough"..:confused:
 
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DrCue'sProtege said:
in other words, and some have disagreed with me on this before, when you practice position play you need to practice it from the standpoint i have to land the cue ball on a dime. or as Williebetmore said, he at times will practice landing the cue ball on a credit card.

thoughts?
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You have to be ready for this type of practice. If you are a good shot maker, but you are only running 1 rack a day, or every other day, it is probably your shot selection/pattern play that is the problem. I wouldn't mess with "on a dime" until I fixed "in my head."

There are levels to progression, and IMO, practicing getting the cue ball to stop in on a 1/2" circle on the table is way WAY down the list. When you are only missing a dozen or so balls every session (e.g, 20 balls a day, 10 balls for a few hours, 2-3 balls an hour), this might be something to work on. If you miss 10 balls an hour, well, you don't need to work on cue ball control. I would recommend working on shotmaking, patterns, and concentration first.

Put another way, it IS a good tool to have, but other tools should come first.

-td
 
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