Break Balls and Cueing

[dmgwalsh]

dennis: if memory serves, we discussed how draw/follow will effect the path of the cue enroute to the rack with regard to finding the exact hit on a ball and there was little consensus. the further away your break-ball, the more the cue is going to curve into the pack. i guess just practicing break balls is the best thing.

it'd be nice if one of the pros here would get a high-speed video camera and do a video of just break balls from all angles, speed and spin so that we can see exactly how the cueball behaves upon contact. i'm sure that even some of the most advanced players would be interested in watching that.

Sausage we may have discussed that previously.

But assuming you know the spot where it will hit, how does that impact what you do?

After watching this video of Niels Feijen run 259 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4055665300780803274# I've changed the way I break. If you haven't seen it you should fast forward to watch all his breakshots.

Did you notice him stopping and looking to see where the cue ball was going to contact the rack? What do you think he did with that information?

He hits it harder than anyone I've seen so far. After hearing Archer and Varner say the only time they use side english is under the rack I've gone to only using draw when it's an inverse angle and follow if its even or obtuse.

Does Varner just use follow on the even/obtuse and draw on all the inverse angles? He is obviously a very experienced old time 14.1 player.

 

[Big_H515]

I fear to share my input as I didn't read all the responses but in "Racking secrets" from Joe Tucker, he does give quite a bit of info regarding breakshots from all sides, and also describes what happens when you go into the stack aiming at specific sides of the balls. I found it to be very informative...more so than Sigels videos.

 

[dmgwalsh]

I fear to share my input as I didn't read all the responses but in "Racking secrets" from Joe Tucker, he does give quite a bit of info regarding breakshots from all sides, and also describes what happens when you go into the stack aiming at specific sides of the balls. I found it to be very informative...more so than Sigels videos.

Nothing to fear. I was watching it this morning. All of his shots are using the draw angle, that is cue ball closer to center of table than object ball. Except for the first top of the rack shot, he uses mostly draw, although he uses inside english a bit on some of them to hit the side rail and come up.

 

[sausage]

But assuming you know the spot where it will hit, how does that impact what you do?

dennis: i may not have been clear. i was referring to the difficulty of finding the contact point of the c-ball hitting the rack when the b-ball is farther from the stack when hitting with follow or draw.

 

[dmgwalsh]

dennis: i may not have been clear. i was referring to the difficulty of finding the contact point of the c-ball hitting the rack when the b-ball is farther from the stack when hitting with follow or draw.

I understood what you were saying and that is of course another variable.
But my question basically had to with assuming you know where on the ball in the rack the cue ball is hitting, what do you deduce as far as where the cue ball will go, and can you change the effect by changing what you put on the cue ball. (Let's just assume for now that what we are putting on the cue ball does not change the path of the cue ball from the object ball to the rack.)

 

[driven]

Pat Flemming has a video on the subject on you tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iaEWtZOPSY

Mike Sigel's perfect pool is also very good.

steven

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

After watching this video of Niels Feijen run 259 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4055665300780803274# After hearing Archer and Varner say the only time they use side english is under the rack I've gone to only using draw when it's an inverse angle and follow if its even or obtuse.

For you ball-pocketing speed demons, I noticed that Niels pocketed 185 balls in the first hour!

In watching Niels break shots, it seemed like in every rack of the video the break shot was made using center ball, draw or follow (without any English). Has anyone else noticed that Niels uses little or no English on the break shots?

 

[Wink]

Dennis, what an awesome topic. As I have mentioned before, I can pocket balls, but I can't seem to get clean breakshots. This discussion, and a couple of the videos shown will be very helpful.

Hey guys, keep up the great discussions. Once I start to understand this stuff, then I can practice the execution. I am learning a ton of the variables here, but of course, will need to experiment with them in practice, and hopefully, eventually things will start to click.

I am AMAZED at how much it helps to watch the videos that you all have posted or linked to. I find myself planning the rack, altering the next shot selection as I watch the CB position, and then of course, trying to understand and learn WHY you guys make some selections where I made a different selection.

Keep the info coming, and thanks again.

 

[dmgwalsh]

Pat Flemming has a video on the subject on you tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iaEWtZOPSY

Mike Sigel's perfect pool is also very good.

steven

Pat's analysis is good. He basically says the same as Sigel and Rempe. Except he says when the balls are on the same line, use high outside english. When he demonstrates that shot, the cue ball never gets to a rail so I am not sure what the outside is doing other than cinching the shot. As hard as he hits it, not sure how much throw. Then on the draw angle he merely adds outside English again to what Rempe and Sigel told us about using draw.

Sigel's Perfect Pool is of course good as is Rempe's How to run a rack. But neither of them mentioned adjusting anything for where you hit the ball in the rack. Neither did Pat. In the Rempe San Souci match player review, Rempe said that he needed to see where he was hitting the rack, but was not real explicit on what adjustment he made as a result.

 

[Salamander]

That's interesting about the use of outside English. I use it all the time, because I like the results I get with it. However, I must hit it harder because I almost always reach the bottom rail. I prefer more spread on my breaks, but I think by hitting the shot softer, the cue ball will glance off the stack and the spin will slow it down (no running English). Amost invariably, you will have a couple of balls move down table for your next shot. Dallas West was a master at this type of chip, and run straight pool. The advantage, of course is that his opponent rarely had a shot when his inning was over.

As to the the Rempe/San Souci review, that's the problem I've found...namely, no specific discussion of particulars. I watched most of the available acustats, and the break is the one area that I feel I've had to rely on experimenting to find out what works. The exception seems to be the behind the stack breakshot, where there is more of a universal agreement on what is proper.

When I've discussed a particular breakshot with other players, I invariably get different answers as to what is best. Given some time, I think it would be fun to put the wei table to use and discuss some of the more classic breaks.

Pat's analysis is good. He basically says the same as Sigel and Rempe. Except he says when the balls are on the same line, use high outside english. When he demonstrates that shot, the cue ball never gets to a rail so I am not sure what the outside is doing other than cinching the shot. As hard as he hits it, not sure how much throw. Then on the draw angle he merely adds outside English again to what Rempe and Sigel told us about using draw.

Sigel's Perfect Pool is of course good as is Rempe's How to run a rack. But neither of them mentioned adjusting anything for where you hit the ball in the rack. Neither did Pat. In the Rempe San Souci match player review, Rempe said that he needed to see where he was hitting the rack, but was not real explicit on what adjustment he made as a result.

 

[Dave Nelson]

May I have a clarification?

Side of the rack break shot. Cue ball, object ball on line parallel to the side rail. Top of the ball in rack I wish to hit is the side closest to me?

Dave Nelson

 

[3andstop]

May I have a clarification?

Side of the rack break shot. Cue ball, object ball on line parallel to the side rail. Top of the ball in rack I wish to hit is the side closest to me?

Dave Nelson

Dave, if I understand your question, the tops of the balls in the rack are the parts of the balls farthest from the bottom short rail, ever so slightly above the widest part of the ball that is exposed. If that makes any sense. I can't access cuetable without registering, and I'm too lazy. If you were breaking from the left side, like a right hand player usually chooses, the part of the ball we are speaking of is the left corner of the smile on this guy -> and the lower part of the ball is his left eyeball. The center of the ball is where the arrow is pointing.

 

[Dave Nelson]

Okay, I think I gotcha. Thanks.

Dave

 

[elvicash]

I have used the rule of thumb using straight line up the table if CB is near the rail use high, more toward the middle of the table use draw.

I need to focus more on the contact position of the first ball in the rack. Blackjack used to state clean in clean out. I need to work on that, without it I get a lot of secondary collisions. and have problems as a result.

Another issue I have is I really try to hit the rack solid, if I hit it real good there is another issue that will occur I move to many balls from the rack area and do not leave a break ball, they go up table or to the rail and make clusters.

Listening to DH on a run DVD he mentions using inside English, and I find I miss more balls when I try to break with English than I do when I use center hi or low. I am trying to only use english if I need it. One place I find I require the side spin when I am below the rack, when there I try to hit past the mid half second ball to the end of the rack and where I am going to hit. If I can hit on side of the balls to the rail then use English so I get running effect and go off the rack to the side rail and the CB goes 3 rails around the bottom if the first contact is on the ball side away from the rail then I will carom to the bottom rail first and I want to come 2 rails out of the corner.

I think one thing the good power strokers have is the strong top spin that goes through the rack with top spin acting as a motor. The CB hits the rack and then drives back in again. I have that action at times but at the cost of accuracy and missing my OB too often.

I like a break that separates the balls so none are touching but all balls are from side pockets to the corners no balls up table cue ball near multiple shots multiple possible break shots. I wind up to often with clusters and balls up table and no break balls. Writing this has made me think about a few things. I will get off here and go hit a few balls. Maybe this will help.

Thanks guys

 

[Ratta]

When I started paying attention to where the cue ball contacts the rack my game went up a notch or two. As sausage pointed out, stroke has a lot to do with it. WIth a stroke like John's you can apply the rules of Sigel more often because he can force the cue ball to do what he wants. If it's a draw breakshot he can hit it hard enough to draw it back to the kitchen and then back to the center of the table. If it's in the follow postion he can apply enough top spin to force it to the bottom rail and beat the scratch.

I don't have that power stroke so I try to judge where the cue ball is going to contact the ball in the stack and basically play position off that ball. If the cue ball is going to contact the top of a ball and I hit it with draw I will probably end up the kitchen with a long shot. If I hit the same shot with follow it should rebound off the ball stack and put on the brakes and stay near the center of the table. If its going to hit the bottom of the ball and I hit it with draw I will probably draw it right into the corner pocket, just because you hit it with draw dosen't mean it is going to go backwards off the stack. If I hit that shot with follow it will arc forward after contact and hit the bottom rail. So basically where it hits the object ball in the stack determines the direction it is going to travel after contact so you adjust your english so the cue ball ends up some where predictable. I hit a lot of breakballs with center ball so the cue ball just stuns off the rack and stays close by.

This is what works for me, not saying it will work for everybody. Sometimes it might be better to just hit em hard and hope. lol

-Bill

100 % agree- some guys have such a *powerful stroke* so that they re able to control the CB even if they hit it with a high speed. Those break-shots with draw that it goes to the kitchen and again to center-of-the table are played by many guys. But never saw them so extremly controlled like John Schmidt or Thorsten Hohmann executing them. Without control there s too much luck needed to play break-balls like this one.
Further i would show up one more point- if you re playing on *your* home-table it is also a great advantage. You can t play every break the same way on every table. Conditions of the material are too important.

Marop hit the nail in his comment,

lg
Ingo

 

[3andstop]

Okay, I think I gotcha. Thanks.

Dave

That little face came in handy ... lol. Yeah, those slight different contact spots on the OB create different tangent lines for the CB to follow after contact with the stack, and make a big difference in where the CB goes after the break.

Even if you think you are able to guide the CB where you want after it hits the stack by using follow or draw, these contact points on the OB effect that angle the CB deflects from greatly, so they are important to consider.

And, on top of the way the CB reacts after it hits those certain parts of the OB in the stack, the same break shot, (depending on how far it is from the stack, say 10") from the exact same angle, shot into the stack twice, by the exact same person, using the exact same amount of follow or draw, can contact the OB in the stack in any of those three spots, high, low, center, depending on how you stroke the shot, and how hard it is hit. Since the CB will remain on the tangent line longer on its way to the stack, the harder it is hit before it takes on the follow or draw you give it, this too will have to be considered when you execute a break shot. So lots of feel involved here too.

 

[sausage]

You can t play every break the same way on every table. Conditions of the material are too important.

absolutely.... even when you are on a run on your home table, the conditions change as the balls get dirty and chalk covers the cloth.