Break With Playing Cue?

Personally, anyone that breaks with their playing cue must break like a wet rag. Breaking the balls can result in a damaged tip or worse...one that flies across the room with barreling velocity. I cant say Ive ever seen a top tier player or anyone with half a break use his playing cue to crush the balls, but hey...Ive only been around the game 32+ yrs. :eek:
 
In the day when Straight Pool was king you broke with your playing Cue. Now when you have 8, 9, 10 Ball being played more people have a Break & or Jump Cue or combo of both for Breaking & Jumping.
 
Voodoo Daddy said:
Personally, anyone that breaks with their playing cue must break like a wet rag. Breaking the balls can result in a damaged tip or worse...one that flies across the room with barreling velocity. I cant say Ive ever seen a top tier player or anyone with half a break use his playing cue to crush the balls, but hey...Ive only been around the game 32+ yrs. :eek:
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I think that's subjective. Depends on the tip you use as well. There's no way you'll damage your cue (assuming you're not using an ivory ferrule) and it's possible you'll mushroom your tip. If, however, you already play with a hard tip, you're not going to damage the tip either.

My playing cue breaks WAAAAAY better than any break cue I've ever used. I just think the shaft/joint are superior and the energy transfer is better.

I don't break weak and I'm not the fastest/hardest--- I break around 24mph top speed. I break, jump and play with my playing cue - imagine that, eh?

I don't knock break cues at all -- I see the purpose and it's possibly required depending on the tip you use. Let's be frank, if you're a hard-tip player --- they're nowhere near required and that's a fact. :)
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I think that's subjective. Depends on the tip you use as well. There's no way you'll damage your cue (assuming you're not using an ivory ferrule) and it's possible you'll mushroom your tip. If, however, you already play with a hard tip, you're not going to damage the tip either.

My playing cue breaks WAAAAAY better than any break cue I've ever used. I just think the shaft/joint are superior and the energy transfer is better.

I don't break weak and I'm not the fastest/hardest--- I break around 24mph top speed. I break, jump and play with my playing cue - imagine that, eh?

I don't knock break cues at all -- I see the purpose and it's possibly required depending on the tip you use. Let's be frank, if you're a hard-tip player --- they're nowhere near required and that's a fact. :)
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I play with a Predator and break with a Schuler and am very happy with the combination. I don't use a cue designed for breaking because I like how the Schuler breaks, although I've cracked a couple of shafts (no, I don't bend them) and have tiny crack lines in my current ferrule. I'd probably be better off with a cue designed for breaking regarding wear and tear. Maybe I'll invest in one in the future. As for jumping, unless I'm playing in an event where jump cues aren't allowed, I will always use a jump cue.

When I was playing hours and hours every day and breaking and breaking and breaking and breaking ....sorry, but it's just not realistic to break with a playing cue. And I see that a whole lot of players feel the same way. It's not just me.

Plus, the flat tip and rubber grip are also important to me for breaking.
 
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Fran...

Makes sense. That's why I said this is subjective. A lot depends on the material of your tip/ferrule and in your case, grip.

That said, breaking with a break cue isn't a "requirement" for all players. I'd break with my Lambros until my arm fell off just because I haven't experienced tip or ferrule issues. If I did, I have 5 or 6 extra shafts to pull from. I wouldn't trade my "feel" for the cost of a tip. Tip ever does get damaged (almost never for me) I'll buy another tip... no biggie.

This is a very subjective topic that probably has many philosophies assoc with it. I prefer to carry many shafts (which are honestly never used) in lieu of additional cues that feel inferior. It's wrong to paint this topic with a broad brush saying one must have a break cue to break well.


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SpiderWebComm said:
Fran...

Makes sense. That's why I said this is subjective. A lot depends on the material of your tip/ferrule and in your case, grip.

That said, breaking with a break cue isn't a "requirement" for all players. I'd break with my Lambros until my arm fell off just because I haven't experienced tip or ferrule issues. If I did, I have 5 or 6 extra shafts to pull from. I wouldn't trade my "feel" for the cost of a tip. Tip ever does get damaged (almost never for me) I'll buy another tip... no biggie.

This is a very subjective topic that probably has many philosophies assoc with it. I prefer to carry many shafts (which are honestly never used) in lieu of additional cues that feel inferior. It's wrong to paint this topic with a broad brush saying one must have a break cue to break well.


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I hear you. But please keep in mind that what I wrote was that all serious players use break cues. I also wrote that there are probably exceptions out there. I didn't write that one must have a break cue to break well.

A serious player to me is someone who breaks a lot. I mean a WHOLE LOT. If you are a serious player and you break only with your playing cue, then more power to you and you are one of those exceptions I was referring to.
 
Hola guys.

I often wonder a bit if players talk about *their* break..and about the Breakcue *they need*.
I also would say, that to break with your player is nice-but like Fran i also prefer a bit thicker diameter and another shape on it (on my breaker). My breakshaft has a leather tip-and i love it. I really don t like those phenolic tips. My shaft on my break cue is a shaft which must be from end of the 70 s. Very old growth, and very stiff. This combination with the hard leather tip works great for me.

To come back to *the players* who are *just* talking about their absolutley needed abilities about their break cue (sry a bit ironic and sarcasm): I really saw almost never one of them really practicing breaking. And sometimes some of em ask how to *work on their break*. In these situations i put the cb and the ob on the table. The cueball on the headstring and the ob 4 diamonds away- in a straight-line to a pocket. Then i tell them that they should practice ball- and the speed where at they can make the ball still constantly and also still are able to hit the CB deadstraight on the vertical line. That s the break speed which would give the best result in my opinion.

And now a big quiz: what do you think how many will follow this advice?....lol- with a seriously positive thinking may be 1 out of 50.

My break i would rate if it s about the speed is like Spideys- Somewhere between 20 and 25 perhaps. Perhaps slower. And it gives me much more succes than trying to put just power or a higher speed into it.

lg
Ingo
 
OK lets see if a little science will trump personal opinions here for those sitting on the fence.... On a 9 foot table playing 9ball 24mph seems to be about right for spreading the balls out and getting a shot on the 1ball... Over hitting the break leads to no shot on the 1ball as it ends up on the head rail instead of in front of the pocket. You may actually get away with underhitting the break and making the wing ball and keeping shape on the 1 but the balls will be more prone to congestion......

Watch the finals of the infamous US Open where Corey wins.. By the lopsided score you would think Corey played perfect and the soft break was huge in the win... The sun moon and stars all aligned that night and the rolls won the Open not the soft break....

But back to the task... Science and break cues..... Most of the break cues in use today have been specialized to do one thing and one thing only... Shoot the cueball as fast and as accurately as possible at the 1ball..... Mezz and predator have both done their homework as I am sure some of the custom makers have... The biggest gains are in the ferrule/tip combination....

Sure you can break with your playing cue... It comes with a hard leather tip.... That means it is likely around 82% efficient in transferring energy
from the cue to the cueball.... That means to generate 24mph on the cueball I will have to hit the break at around 29.27mph due to energy loss....

The predator and mezz break shafts are up into the 90s as far as energy transfer as may be some of the custom break cues.... They actually are engineered to increase the break speed but that is where I think most people miss the point.... I am going to want to break the balls at 24mph with my break cue or with my playing cue... with the break cue I only have to hit the break at 26mph vs over 29mph with my player....

Now tell me again why I don't need a break cue? I am pretty sure I am going to be a whole lot more accurate when I can hit something softer and still get the speed I want......

I practice my break at length... I have been known to do 4-5 hour sessions doing nothing but breaking... I have used the break speed app extensively... I have tried all sorts of different combinations and cues and the best results I have seen in least effort for maximum results have came from dedicated break cues engineered to perform the task......
 
Renfro, that's good info. Thanks for posting that. Do those break cues you're referring to have synthetic tips? What info have you accumulated regarding damage to cue balls from synthetic tips, particularly the measle ball?
 
FranCrimi said:
Renfro, that's good info. Thanks for posting that. Do those break cues you're referring to have synthetic tips? What info have you accumulated regarding damage to cue balls from synthetic tips, particularly the measle ball?
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Fran for a tip to be in the 90s in energy transfer it is going to likely be some type of phenolic or synthetic... Notice I say some type... no one to my knowledge is using the same phenolic on the break tip as the actual cue ball it is all slightly softer....

The hardest impact you are going to have will be the ball on ball collision of the break.... That collision is going to be as close to 100% energy transfer as we will see in reality...... So for breaking we are hitting the cueball at 26mph with a lets say a 19oz cue.... The impact of the cueball on the head ball is going to be at 24mph against half of the weight of a 9ball rack which would be 1.65 pounds or roughly 26oz(this is being very conservative)... For 10ball and 8ball that number of course is going to go up based on the ball count and the geometry of the rack.....

As far as damage occurring with the different cue balls due to the use of the phenolic/synthetic tips.....

I think there are a few variables at work. Hardness and contact patch size... Some phenolics and the white diamond tips are harder than say the BK2 composite... They also have no resilience so you might as well be striking the cueball with a hammer.

In most instances I still have not seen much in the way of damage on true Aramith cue balls. I have a measles ball, a red circle, and a blue circle and I break with them all...

I looked last night and I have 1 stress crack in the Measles ball. I actually have had that particular crack in the ball for awhile now and it was caused by a white diamond tip on a 11.8mm shaft. That particular tip in that size with a dime radius had a small contact patch on the cueball. The concentrated hit caused damage. The crack is a less than a quarter circle and when it happened it was right outside of the contact patch that could be seen from the chalk residue....

The mezz deep impact is 13mm and the BK2 is 12.75mm and so far I have not seen damage occur using either of them.

I will say this... This is the 3rd measles ball I have had... The first 2 came from a reputable source but they were larger and heavier than the one I have now that I picked up at the Open a few years ago they were also a little different in color...

The first Measles ball I purchased was very very prone to fractures... I was and I am convinced that the lure of easy money has many sources selling the counterfeit as the Aramith measles ball...

I can also tell you that last year I came home with 5 tv sets from the Open.... Couldn't pass them up at 100 a pop.... They were selling both unopened and used sets from the tourney tables... I came home with 4 new sets and a used set.... Todd let me look thru the used sets to pick out the one I wanted and I saw nothing in the way of stress damage on any of the cue balls...

I know many of the pros use the BK2 and Mezz... I tried out the new deep impact pro that Mezz had just sent to Hunter Lombardo... We were waylaying the ball... Granted I max at about 29mph and that is 4-6mph slower than a few of the guys can break, but I didn't notice a single stress crack...

I think the BCAPL overreacted in banning ALL phenolic tips for breaking... I think the issue is likely confined to break cues that have been customized or cues converted to break cues where the shaft/tip is of small diameter and the tip has been chosen just because it's hardest material they can find.

I wish the BCAPL would change the ruling to legalize the factory mezz and predator break cues and then have a size minimum and rockwell hardness rating maximum to address other manufacturers and customized break cues...
 
Thanks, Renfro. I kind of like the wording that the WPA uses regarding tips(see below). It's subjective, but at least someone would have to prove that a particular tip was damaging to a cb before it was banned from use. Also, what about the composition wording in the 2nd sentence? Does that sufficiently cover synthetic tips?

"The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the addressed ball. The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material that extends the natural line of the shaft end of the cue and contacts the cue ball when the shot is executed."

You're right about the imitations. Any time there is a demand for a particular cue ball, the imitations start to show up. I remember when the red circle was popular. Suddenly there were three different shades of red. The deep burgandy 'red circle' was so dense you might as well have been playing on Fred Flinstone equipment.

I still see fake blue circles in some pool rooms where the blue is wearing off and the ball is significantly smaller and lighter in weight.

All organizations should ban the imitation cue balls for competition and then maybe they'll get a better read on how the synthetic tips are working.
 
The 2nd sentence basically means you could use almost anything for the tip. Even most metals are flexible when striking or are struck by even harder materials. Flexible is an alternate of pliable......

I do like that the tip has to be proven to cause damage before it is outlawed but I can already tell them that diameter/radius will have a direct effect and a tip at 12mm will be more likely than at 13mm to cause stress cracks. So they can't just ban one material and be done....

All referees should be instructed to be on the lookout for synthetics and upon inspection of the cue I would say that anything under 12.5mm or a tip with a dime or even more radical radius would be just cause to stop and inspect a cueball for damage...

I would think that the players would even likely help police the issue since they would be more than likely to notice a possibly illegal cue and want to draw a referees attention to it as soon as possible....

One other point...

Synthetics are not far from being viable for playing tips. So far lower friction and misscues have been an issue... Kamui just killed that issue with their new chalk....

I do not like any rule that creates bias and hurdles in the market for new technology. The total ban on phenolics by the BCAPL fits that description....
 
I hear you both,


the industry is making too much money with those so called *innovations*. I would cheer like crazy, if they would just allow leather- not just only on break cues-also for jump-cues, i would just love it. (beside i would also cheer, if they would put the jump-shot out of the arsenal completley :P).

But in my opinion the damaged balls coming almost ever from bad installed pockets (nails for example).

"leather loving Ingo "
:-)
 
I use a break cue for hard break games for two reasons. I play with ivory ferrules and, less wear & tear / maintenance on the tip.

DPP - not an instructor.
 
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Neil said:
I see you are still of the "old school" that thinks you have to crush the rack, or you don't have a good break. Doesn't matter that you can't see the lowest ball, didn't make anything, just so you get that nice loud crack.

That method is antiquated. There are much better ways to break now. Much more reliable. You need look no farther than Corey Duel for proof. He doesn't crush them, and his break is so devastating that it has been barred from most tournaments.

The only reason one would need a break cue is if they are using a soft or medium tip. If one uses a hard tip to start with, there is no need for a break cue. Breaking hard can compress the tip and misshape it (make it harder) when using softer tips. That is the ONLY reason to use a break cue. And, for that reason, all you need is a house cue.

When one uses their playing cue, they tend to be more accurate with it. It is a part of them, they know how to control it. The break is all about control and accuracy, not speed. Most hard breaks tend to cluster up some balls, whereas a softer break tends to spread the balls and keep them open. I have found that when you make a lot of balls on the break, it is not with a hard break, but a medium speed break.

Pros are not much different than anyone else. They are just people too. Few of them have studied the break, but instead tend to listen to what the latest scoop is. Plus, most of them don't use hard tips to start with. They also tend to shift to whatever the latest tip on the market is. Those pros that have studied the break, do not break very hard at all. Just look at Shane and Corey and Mills, the best breakers out there.

As far as breaking like a wet rag, when you can break in as many balls as I have, let me know.
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I guess Bustamante is the hard break exception? Wait, or Earl must be that, no...I just remembered Johnny Archer has to be it. Oh God, I meant Dennis Hatch. I guess Sigel, the winningest tournament player ever is wondering how he won all those years with a big break?

You break soft and I really could care less. Ive seen Shane, Corey and Donny break, thats their way...it works for them and I commend them for their consistantcy but dont think they dont possess a big break, using it when needed. Tournament tables with new cloth, new balls and the heat of the lights making the table ultra lively that break rocks but that soft break on slower cloth and a table that tightened up over time will keep most players broke

As far as my breaking ability's :cool:, I wont bluster about how many balls I make on the break, a few people that post here seen it so no huffin and puffin from me, just dont think you have cornered the market in making multiple balls on the break. You have your opinion, I have mine and mine works real good!!
 
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