Breaking into the cloth...

8-Baller

8-Baller

aka Darth Draw
Silver Member
The other day in my local pool hall, someone came up to me and told me that I'm damaging the cloth because of the way I break. Now, I consider myself a really hard breaker and the only way for me to guarantee that the cue ball stays near the middle of the table (kicks aside) after the break and not fly off into the air is for me to break through the cue ball and directly into the cloth approximately 30 inches away from the cue ball's initial position. Now, I can tell from the chalk marks that the tip of my shaft actually drags for about 6 inches from my follow-through....

So my questions become:

1) Am I really damaging the cloth?
2) How do other players break without the tip contacting the cloth and at the same time, maintaining full power and decent control over the cue ball?
3) Should I even be concerned about this?

I want to make sure I am not causing damage to other people's tables. As well, if there's another breaking technique that is consistent and powerful that doesn't contact the cloth, I would love to hear about it because I find that my shaft bends quite a bit when I break....I don't want to warp it.

Anyways, thanks guys, in advance for any feedback.... :D

Donald
 
Thats why the cloth should be replaced about every year or so.... in my eyes thats why there is an hourly rate on hour tables and .75 or 1.00 a game is so that they will be able to replace the cloth before it gets completely worn out..IMO
 
In my opinion I don't believe it is a good idea to break into the cloth. I used to break like that a long time ago and actually broke a break cue doing it. As far as damaging the cloth, that all depends on the pressure you are applying to it, and I'm sure it will wear out after doing it so many times.
I have found that accuracy is key when breaking, not power. Yes it is nice to have a break that sounds like thunder, but if you can't keep the CB on the table there is no point to it.
I'm sure others will agree that you should focus more on accuracy with a level cue throughout the break.
 
not at my house

i use to break the same way, leaving long marks on the table and after a while to wears the cloth very bad. it cost about 500 to replace the simonis on my 8 ft brunswick, so i taught myself how to break without digging my cue tip into the cloth. chuck starkey
 
8-Baller said:
The other day in my local pool hall, someone came up to me and told me that I'm damaging the cloth because of the way I break. Now, I consider myself a really hard breaker and the only way for me to guarantee that the cue ball stays near the middle of the table (kicks aside) after the break and not fly off into the air is for me to break through the cue ball and directly into the cloth approximately 30 inches away from the cue ball's initial position. Now, I can tell from the chalk marks that the tip of my shaft actually drags for about 6 inches from my follow-through....

So my questions become:

1) Am I really damaging the cloth?
2) How do other players break without the tip contacting the cloth and at the same time, maintaining full power and decent control over the cue ball?
3) Should I even be concerned about this?

I want to make sure I am not causing damage to other people's tables. As well, if there's another breaking technique that is consistent and powerful that doesn't contact the cloth, I would love to hear about it because I find that my shaft bends quite a bit when I break....I don't want to warp it.

Anyways, thanks guys, in advance for any feedback.... :D

Donald
Click to expand...

Are they chalk marks, or tracks from your ferrule. If they are white it ain't your tip. I have seen this on my table. This one guy breaks like that, and leaves these crazy streaks. I see the shaft when he breaks, and it's bent on the table. I am not a big fan of this. Don't be THAT guy!:eek:
 
8-Baller said:
The other day in my local pool hall, someone came up to me and told me that I'm damaging the cloth because of the way I break. Now, I consider myself a really hard breaker and the only way for me to guarantee that the cue ball stays near the middle of the table (kicks aside) after the break and not fly off into the air is for me to break through the cue ball and directly into the cloth approximately 30 inches away from the cue ball's initial position. Now, I can tell from the chalk marks that the tip of my shaft actually drags for about 6 inches from my follow-through....

So my questions become:

1) Am I really damaging the cloth?
2) How do other players break without the tip contacting the cloth and at the same time, maintaining full power and decent control over the cue ball?
3) Should I even be concerned about this?

I want to make sure I am not causing damage to other people's tables. As well, if there's another breaking technique that is consistent and powerful that doesn't contact the cloth, I would love to hear about it because I find that my shaft bends quite a bit when I break....I don't want to warp it.

Anyways, thanks guys, in advance for any feedback.... :D

Donald
Click to expand...
I highlighted the pertinent part for you. If this is what you do to keep the cueball straight, then do it. A whole lot of other people break to the cloth. I wont' tell if you won't. I'll guess that's it's split in half. Some break into the cloth; some don't.

Personally, if I dont' pay attention to the tip driving to the cloth, I will guarantee myself a non-square hit. I haven't ripped the cloth in 25 + years. I doubt I ever will.

Fred
 
At a pool hall, I don't know that it's such a big deal. They'll probably replace the cloth anyway before it could wear a hole. I've never seen cloth with a wear mark that could have been caused by that, but of course, just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

On my home table, I'd probably ask people not to dig into the break, because I won't be changing the cloth as often as they do at the pool hall.

In either case, I'd be more concerned about whether or not a break patch is used for the cue ball. If the big breakers aren't using one of those, there will eventually be a hole where people break from, but maybe not if the cloth is changed often enough. Occasionally, someone sets the cue ball in one of those holes and breaks from there. LOL. Not a good idea from a safety standpoint. :eek:
 
8-Baller said:
The other day in my local pool hall, someone came up to me and told me that I'm damaging the cloth because of the way I break. Now, I consider myself a really hard breaker and the only way for me to guarantee that the cue ball stays near the middle of the table (kicks aside) after the break and not fly off into the air is for me to break through the cue ball and directly into the cloth approximately 30 inches away from the cue ball's initial position. Now, I can tell from the chalk marks that the tip of my shaft actually drags for about 6 inches from my follow-through....

So my questions become:

1) Am I really damaging the cloth?
2) How do other players break without the tip contacting the cloth and at the same time, maintaining full power and decent control over the cue ball?
3) Should I even be concerned about this?

I want to make sure I am not causing damage to other people's tables. As well, if there's another breaking technique that is consistent and powerful that doesn't contact the cloth, I would love to hear about it because I find that my shaft bends quite a bit when I break....I don't want to warp it.

Anyways, thanks guys, in advance for any feedback.... :D

Donald
Click to expand...

1. The only reason the CB would fly off the table is because you have launched it off the table with your downard angle of attack. It then bounces and it is jump ball as to how high it will be when it impacts the head ball.

2. When you say that the cb "kicks aside" I assume you mean that it heads off the side rail and back to center...hopefully.

Some think that such off-center hits promotes all sorts of good things like making the 1 ball...the wing ball more often but I have seen no DATA to confirm that.

But without question, the off-center hit is reducing the total impact force applied by the CB which retains more of its energy with an off-center hit vs. a square hit.

3. The length of your follow through has nothing at all to do with the speed of the shot. All that counts is cue speed at impact. Of course, if you tried to restrict your follow through to, say, a distance no greater than an inch from the contact point, you could only do that by slowing the cue down before impact. So certainly, you don't want to impose any RESTRAINING force on the cue.

But the speed you are able to achieve has mostly to do with your "twitch muscle fibres" (HONEST) which control how quickly you can accellerate the cue.

That is why Alex can break with the Big Boys all day long!
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/anatomyandphysiology/a/MuscleFiberType.htm

I would not presume to change the way you break and while I have seen a whole series of "scratch lines" at the break area, I've never seen anyone rip the cloth or eroded it to any appreciable degree. You will get a hole under the CB position a lot faster than tip scratch erosion.

But some people and room owners don't like looking at the scratch marks and I don't either.

(on my home table, I put a small piece of napkin paper under the CB when I break. I have always had to replace the cloth before any hole or serious dent occurred).


(-:

Jim
 
av84fun said:
1
2. When you say that the cb "kicks aside" I assume you mean that it heads off the side rail and back to center...hopefully.
Click to expand...
In the context of his sentence, I understood him to say, "My cueball lands and pretty much stays in the center, disregarding any time another object ball kicks it out of the center of the table, that is..."

I also understood him to mean that his approach to the break includes this follow through 30" to a spot because he's found that's the best way for him to keep his cue stick straight. In fact, that's exactly what I do, too (or close enough). If I don't, I find I simply don't hit center of the cueball as consistently. It's a sports coaching type of thing. The "hands high" approach as I like to call it. It's a black box input/output method, where input and results are more important than all of the details inside.

Fred
 
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8-Baller said:
So my questions become:

1) Am I really damaging the cloth?
2) How do other players break without the tip contacting the cloth and at the same time, maintaining full power and decent control over the cue ball?
3) Should I even be concerned about this?
Click to expand...

1) Yes, I've seen cloth wearing out by doing this. It will make a gap in the cloth. Balls closely to the line will fall in the gap. It has the same effect as a tapped table.
2) Watch Johnny Archer's breaks.
3) Depends on your attitude, and your relation with the owner.
 
Fred got it right. I find that the only way (at least for me) to achieve a precise center ball hit with full power is to follow through into the cloth approximately 30 inches past the cue ball. I do try to keep the cue as level as possible, but the rail prevents me from doing so.

Sorry for not clarifying, but when I said "kicks aside", I meant that I can consistently leave the cue ball near center table, unless another object ball manages to strike the cue ball during the course of the break. If that happens, the the cue ball can end up pretty much anywhere on the table.

I'm going to look at Archer's break again...
 
Cornerman said:
In the context of his sentence, I understood him to say, "My cueball lands and pretty much stays in the center, disregarding any time another object ball kicks it out of the center of the table, that is..."

I also understood him to mean that his approach to the break includes this follow through 30" to a spot because he's found that's the best way for him to keep his cue stick straight. In fact, that's exactly what I do, too (or close enough). If I don't, I find I simply don't hit center of the cueball as consistently. It's a sports coaching type of thing. The "hands high" approach as I like to call it. It's a black box input/output method, where input and results are more important than all of the details inside.

Fred
Click to expand...

GOTCHA. As I said...whatever works. GYK who can bust 'em with the dudes raises her forearm LEVEL with the floor on her backstroke. If most people did that they would have trouble hitting the CB AT ALL! (-:

As for stroking to hit a spot 30 in. down range...or thereabouts...again, whatever works...but there is a visible spot around 3 inches in front of the CB with a typically high head position at impact.

But I promise you this...you can't hit a spot 30 in. down range with a straight stroke without passing over a spot 3 inches down range.

None of my business though...just sharing.

Regards,
Jim
 
WesleyW said:
1) Yes, I've seen cloth wearing out by doing this. It will make a gap in the cloth. Balls closely to the line will fall in the gap. It has the same effect as a tapped table.
2) Watch Johnny Archer's breaks.3) Depends on your attitude, and your relation with the owner.
Click to expand...

Right. I see fewer and fewer pro "leaning on bent cues" after the break.

A much more level hit on the CB seems to be the more "modern" approach...which is a function of what I call the "Up Move" that Colin Colenso explains so thoroughly on his web site...where the ball is addressed very low but then on the forward stroke there is a MAJOR upward move with the body that, of course, levels out the cue.

Thorsten does a BIG up move...SVB too but to a lesser degree.

Colin explains the physiological reasons for the move that I can't describe except that in "lengthens the lever" which adds power all other things being equal.

check out his web site and scroll down to the Power Break video. It's crude, cell phone video but MY GOD he hits 'em HARD. He gets 11-2 balls past the centerline with an open bridge!!! Cool beans!

(-:
Jim

http://www.cue-tv.com/blog/InstructionalVideos
 
Where the cloth becomes damaged is normally at the head of the rack. The majority of breaks are contacting the head ball. When this contact occurs with the cue ball on a break, friction is caused and repeated friction can break the fibers of the cloth. Thus, adhering a spot on the table is not a bad idea, whether it looks tacky or not.

I use the small spots for my mark and I do have some broken fibers. I'm starting to think a large spot marker is a better choice.
 
9 on the snap said:
Are they chalk marks, or tracks from your ferrule. If they are white it ain't your tip. I have seen this on my table. This one guy breaks like that, and leaves these crazy streaks. I see the shaft when he breaks, and it's bent on the table. I am not a big fan of this. Don't be THAT guy!:eek:
Click to expand...

The xbreaker break cue leaves white lines due to it's secret tip.
 
> The guy that technically still owns the pool room in my town has jumped my ass rather heatedly several times,and even kicked me out for 2 seperate 6-month stretches over this exact issue :eek:. He's also a world-class idiot :D.

My shaft bends like Mike Sigel's at times,enough that a LOT of people have commented on it. Ones that don't know any better think you are doing it on purpose,when the truth is,you couldn't stop it if you wanted to when hitting the balls like you do on a break shot. Some do it much more than others,but if the tip makes contact with the cloth while still maintaining bridge pressure,it has to move.

He would see this and think I was just "trying to play like those hustler's on tv" and blame me for literally every speck of wear in the break path,regardless of cue ball position. Upon open-minded inspection,he would have seen that I only break from one certain position on that table,rarely moving elsewhere.

He was seeing those white wear streaks you speak of,only they started at the base of the ball,and extended for 7-8 inches in most cases. He blamed me for those too.

The sparks started to fly when I tried to explain that he can't really blame me for all that wear on his 175.00 ass-wipe cloth because those marks aren't from my tip,it's everyone else in there that tries to break the balls like I do,but CAN'T because they've never been shown how. They all think it's a matter of raw muscle like twisting a bolt,rather than a specific technique and hand speed.

I told him "look,these marks you just pointed to stop right here,where their tip stops. Mine doesn't stop until it's out HERE,roughly 3 feet CLOSER to the one-ball."

He kept going,telling me that Willie Hoppe never had to break the balls like that :confused:.

I told him "well probably not,he got to play on tables that weren't covered in yard-sale cloth" :rolleyes:. He kept on and on,saying you kids think you have to do all this stuff you see on tv,crap like that.

He started to walk away,and stopped,like he had a sudden thought. He turned around just as I was getting ready to break after running out,and said if he caught me breaking the balls like that again I'd be out the door :mad:.

I told him "I'll tell ya what,I'll just quit now,because I'll be damned if some senile old man is gonna tell me how to break. I just explained to you what causes this,and you still don't understand,so there is nothing more to argue about. If I break like you want me to,I still lose if I ran out every time for the next 20 years,and f**k that :eek:.

You can guess what happened next. Nearly the same scenario has played out at least 2 other times,this one and another for 6 months,once for 2 weeks then he got busted for 2 Cherry-Master's ;),and the place changed hands.

My suggestion is try to talk to the room owner sensibly,but don't let them dictate how you break. Tommy D
 
av84fun said:
Right. I see fewer and fewer pro "leaning on bent cues" after the break.

A much more level hit on the CB seems to be the more "modern" approach...which is a function of what I call the "Up Move" that Colin Colenso explains so thoroughly on his web site...where the ball is addressed very low but then on the forward stroke there is a MAJOR upward move with the body that, of course, levels out the cue.

Thorsten does a BIG up move...SVB too but to a lesser degree.
Click to expand...
It doesn't take much Youtube work to show that both Thorsten and SVB drive their shaft into the cloth on their break. Almost every top breaker does.

Shane REALLY drives it into the cloth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zg4KMjgY0k

and here's Thorsten

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txpzb8wpuKY

and (~ 6:30)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e015hi41cg0

The only times these guys don't look like they're pile driving their shaft into the cloth is when they lift their bridge hand *after* the shaft starts to bend or when it hits the cloth. Stop motion on both of these guys will show that they always drive their shaft into the cloth.

Here's Johnny Archer, one that everyone might think doesn't drive it into the cloth. He does. He just lifts his bridge hand after the tip hits the cloth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx5pozLDzHU

So the question is whether or not you want to hold your bridge hand down.

Fred
 
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Cornerman said:
It doesn't take much Youtube work to show that both Thorsten and SVB drive their shaft into the cloth on their break. Almost every top breaker does.

Shane REALLY drives it into the cloth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zg4KMjgY0k

and here's Thorsten

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txpzb8wpuKY

and (~ 6:30)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e015hi41cg0

The only times these guys don't look like they're pile driving their shaft into the cloth is when they lift their bridge hand *after* the shaft starts to bend or when it hits the cloth. Stop motion on both of these guys will show that they always drive their shaft into the cloth.

Here's Johnny Archer, one that everyone might think doesn't drive it into the cloth. He does. He just lifts his bridge hand after the tip hits the cloth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx5pozLDzHU

So the question is whether or not you want to hold your bridge hand down.

Fred
Click to expand...

Fred, with respect, the TH video is the best because it is in slo mo...but his cue is nearly/fairly level at CB impact and the tip is AT LEAST a foot and a half beyond the cb before it ever touches the cloth.

He EVENTUALLY leans on the cue because if he didn't, he'd fall forward on his face.

Johnny's cue appears to remain off the cloth for an even farther distance.

They're not driving the stroke downward (much) into the cloth at all.

The break stroke scratches I've ever seen appear just a few inches beyond the CB and extend 6-8 inches in length.

Regards,
Jim
 
I guess I'll just keep on breaking the way I break until the owner of the table tells me not to.... his table...his rules....
 
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