Breaking News -- Jeremy Jones settles all aiming arguments!!!

Hungarian said:
Thanks Patrick. What do you think is the best system?
Click to expand...
I aim entirely by feel; don't use a system - unless you count being aware of the OB contact point. I think the best systems are the simplest and most realistic - like "fractions" or "ghost ball". The worst are overcomplicated and unrealistic, like CTE - yet it "works" for those who like it (like Jeremy's system "works" for him).

pj
chgo
 
Last edited:
Patrick Johnson said:
I aim entirely by feel; don't use a system - unless you count being aware of the OB contact point. I think the best systems are the simplest and most realistic - like "fractions" or "ghost ball". The worst are overcomplicated and unrealistic, like CTE - yet it "works" for those who like it (like Jeremy's system "works" for him).

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
Wow, all these years I always thought you had your own system because of your presence in the Aiming Systems section.
 
I think I will describe what he is doing slightly differently, maybe it makes sense to some and helps them, maybe it doesn't, it is what it is.

I would not say JJ does a front hand pivot.

I would say Jeremy has a very consistent Pre-Shot Routine (PSR). He lines up with the natural center ball shot line, and from there he drops his cue with a front hand offset (not pivot) and grip hand down the natural shot line (straight as he would say).

Over time, he knows exactly how to drop his bridge hand to compensates for swerve and deflection, and make the ball, at all speeds.

He has reduced front hand English and back hand English and all other factors to just one factor (FHE only). Using one variable instead of two or more is probably much better option for most players (more simple = better in my opinion).

I see this system as using one variable to compensate for English on your PSR, instead of multiple variables. 10,000 shots later, I'm sure he doesn't even think about it and struggles to describe it to us.
 
Last edited:
Hungarian said:
I'm curious what percentage of top players play by feel vs play by system? I remember Stevie Moore was CTE and a few others did this and that. Then there's CJ with TOI which I use and actually did before even knowing what I was doing. I believe systems and good to experiment with for learning but at the end of the day you have to hit balls without thinking about it.
Click to expand...
I believe most of them use instinct/visual experience/feel, whatever we choose to call it. And Stevie Moore was a great player before CTE was even being taught. His best years were prior to becoming a spokesman for CTE.

I'm not saying he doesn't use CTE, but I believe it's probably a case of he's been convinced that he's always used it, even before it existed, unless he took lessons from Hal Haule back in the late 1990's, which could've happened. But I believe his CTE exposure/enlightenment probably occured much later, when Stan Shuffett started teaching his version of CTE and pro1.

Nevertheless, if Stevie says he uses cte/pro1, then that's what he uses. In my opinion, I doubt any player uses just one aiming method for every shot. The more you know, the better you are at estimating the aim. Aiming systems/methods, are tools. The more you have, the more accurate and consistent your aiming becomes.
 
Last edited:
Hungarian said:
I'm curious what percentage of top players play by feel vs play by system? I remember Stevie Moore was CTE and a few others did this and that. Then there's CJ with TOI which I use and actually did before even knowing what I was doing. I believe systems and good to experiment with for learning but at the end of the day you have to hit balls without thinking about it.
Click to expand...
Systems work, but require:
1. Practice
2. Feel
3. The consistent stroke to pull it off
4. The ability to adapt to table conditions (more feel?)

Systems work but they are different for everybody. We all see the balls differently and are built differently. I'm the only person in my body, you're the only person in your body. There are common denominators but you can know any system in your head and if you've not practiced enough to line up reality with the system (and figured out the limits of said system) they fail.

Example: I can use a 2 rail diamond system to get a hit on an OB when hooked, but unless I hit it with the right speed and spin (which causes variance in the system) it's all but worthless. I mean, I might not give up BIH with basic knowledge of a system, but unless I can hit a ball to pocket, to hide the CB, to cause separation, etc I just gave up the table. If my opponent is capable that system just lost me the game, unless I know it enough to feel what I must do for a successful outcome. It's a baseline but you only get so far without going deeper.

TLDR; Systems without serious practice and observation are much less useful.
 
Last edited:
Patrick Johnson said:
Then I agree, that's what he describes ("butt on shot line") but he doesn't really do that or he'd miss most shots.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
Perhaps the "butt on the shot line" means where his grip hand is, that is on the natural shot line, but not the entire butt.

Obviously the cue being a long straight stick, the butt can't be on the entire shot line with the front end off the shot line.
 
I must add you absolutely can use pivot systems for English. Dr. Dave's SAWS system has this very well documented.
 
Last edited:
Thresh said:
Perhaps the "butt on the shot line" means where his grip hand is, that is on the natural shot line, but not the entire butt.
Click to expand...
Yes, that’s clearly what he means.

Thresh said:
Obviously the cue being a long straight stick, the butt can't be on the entire shot line with the front end off the shot line.
Click to expand...
Yes, when applying side spin correctly, only one point on the angled cue is on the shot line: the pivot point. The butt (grip hand) is too far back to be a good pivot point for all shots - that’s why his description is impossible.

pj
chgo
 
Last edited:
Patrick Johnson said:
You must pivot to use side spin successfully - ..
Click to expand...
Well, there are a couple of quibbles...

If the squirt, swerve and throw together cancel perfectly, your stick will be parallel to the line the stick would have had without side spin. This is very rare. (This is what I would call "parallel english" but there seem to be other definitions in use so I think it is a good idea to avoid the term.)

I think a lot of people think of pivot as something that is consciously done after placing the cue stick on the simple no-sidespin shot line. Some people place the cue stick along the required line -- off-angle, you might say -- without the stick ever having been on the simple line.
 
Thresh said:
I don't use a pivot for English. I drop the stick directly down already lined up for what I want to do. I don't even think about it. Maybe that's just me though
Click to expand...
You place your stick pre-pivoted - I do too. We don't "pivot" per se - we just put the shaft's pivot point on the shot line (by "feel") while pointing the tip at the side spin contact point.

pj
chgo
 
Last edited:
Something funny about aiming systems. I'm not a great player but I can take weight from short stops and win here and there. So roughly 20 some years ago before wide spread aim system discussions I was telling a really good player that I believe the cue travels through the air similar to how an airplane travels with altitude and attitude, i.e., not perfectly straight It made sense to me then. I guess I'm a natural!!
 
Hungarian said:
Something funny about aiming systems. I'm not a great player but I can take weight from short stops and win here and there. So roughly 20 some years ago before wide spread aim system discussions I was telling a really good player that I believe the cue travels through the air similar to how an airplane travels with altitude and attitude, i.e., not perfectly straight It made sense to me then. I guess I'm a natural!!
Click to expand...
Pretty good description of a cue's movement, especially the back end. Fortunately, that translates to a lot less movement at the tip.

pj
chgo
tip dip.jpg

.
 
Last edited:
Another big factor to keep squirt and swerve in balance is stroke speed.

One of the big takeaways I got from my time spent with Scott Lee was the consistency gain you can achieve by keeping as many of your shots in the same stroke speed range as possible and changing tip position only for cue ball control.

Once you learn to do this then the natural pivot point of your own shaft get's ingrained in your mind and makes shots with English much more reliable.

The carbon fiber shaft craze is because they have a larger range of stroke speed you can do this making fine tuning of stroke speed less important.

Hope this makes sense
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top