BRIDGE LENGTH Effects and Considerations
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
Wayne Crimi
Member
I agree.
I just started playing again after a very long layoff (30 years).
I'm not sure why, but I've been using more outside English to both help me pocket (throw balls towards the pocket) and play position.
I find myself struggling a lot with the fact that one table I play on has an old slow rug cloth with balls that are a bit dirty and the other a new fast Simonis cloth with recently polished balls. I must also have something going on with the consistency of my stance/stroke and adjustments for English because I'm getting all kinds of unexpected and inconsistent amounts deflection and swerve even on the same table. Trying to calculate all this stuff is a nightmare and I don't have the same feel now that I had when I was playing regularly (at least yet)
I recently came to the conclusion that I was correct in my youth to almost never use English to help pocket balls and to limit my use of English for position to only when I can't just move up and down through the center. There are times when using English makes position a little easier, but it adds shot making complexity and inconsistencies that may not be worth it.
I'm going back to mostly playing through the center of the cue ball and using a LOT of stun shots.
snookered_again
Well-known member
if you spin a ball it travels in an arc toward the OB so there is a little to compensate for. direction is changed. also a spinning ball will throw the OB and that also will change it's course.you'll see it more on lighter shots. yes then the CB will hit a rail and that will change its direction , putting all that together takes practice, beyond theory.
if your CB is rolling straight and you cut any ball then you are also throwing it as well because you are causing it to spin the OB and CB as a result of that collision. if you want to make the OB roll true then you actually need some CB spin so they are geared together in such a way the OB does not spin..
If you use spin too much you can cause more trouble than its worth, there are other factors, yes dirty balls perform differently and the cloth may have some slip as well.. the collision may cause the ball to shift a bit sideways..
putting it all together , practice I dont think anyone has it perfect yet, I know I do not ;-) but I think understanding the physics properly is part of the learning curve.
if your CB is rolling straight and you cut any ball then you are also throwing it as well because you are causing it to spin the OB and CB as a result of that collision. if you want to make the OB roll true then you actually need some CB spin so they are geared together in such a way the OB does not spin..
If you use spin too much you can cause more trouble than its worth, there are other factors, yes dirty balls perform differently and the cloth may have some slip as well.. the collision may cause the ball to shift a bit sideways..
putting it all together , practice I dont think anyone has it perfect yet, I know I do not ;-) but I think understanding the physics properly is part of the learning curve.
Wayne Crimi
Member
I understand the basic physics and interactions well, but since the playing conditions are not consistent that means the behavior of the cue ball and object balls vary with the conditions also. That means making adjustments for the amount of English, speed of the shot, cloth, cleanliness of the object balls, and distance between the cue ball and object ball become this almost nightmarish calculation whether done consciously or by feel. So I am wondering whether some of the advantages of using a little English for pocketing or cue ball control are worth the downsides of those extra calculations. Some things that can be done easily with a bit of spin can also be done with a stun shot through the middle of the cue ball. The stun shot may be a little more difficult to control, but you eliminate the potential for missing because of miscalculated English impacts.
I just bought a new Shane Gibson Cue and brought it to my local pool hall outfitted with New Blue Diamond Tables as well as new Simonis Felt! As per Dr. Dave’s very informative material on the subject, I first determined where the Pivot Point was by using a small low level laser I placed under the rail aimed from center Diamond lengthwise and then starting with my “normal” bridge length. After the hit, I quickly lifted my bridge so the laser would reflect on the ball. My “Normal” bridge length was at 8-9” but it sent the CB offline, if putting right English on the CB, the CB was going slightly right. By adjusting my Bridge Distance to 12” on my Plain Maple and 12.5” on the Keilwood, I realized that the CB would go straight to target.
After that, also using Dr.D’s material (Thank you Dr.D!) I set up “sentinel“ balls R&L at a corner pocket using a third ball the “align” them. I had forgotten Dr. D suggested a 1/2” on each side because I used like 2/16”! I used striped balls to shoot with so the English was the same by hitting on the Vertical middle, on each side toward target. I was frankly shocked that, with some practice, I was able to clear the “sentinel” balls from each of three spots on the table ( 1’ at both 1st diamonds, 3’ at the 35 mark just beyond the 2 Diamond Spot on the table, and around 6’ or longer from a spot on the 5th Diamond line on a 9ft Table). I was prepared to have to ”figure” out how much FHE -vs- BHE for each of 3 speeds (S,M,F corresponding from shooting CB from Headstring as follows : S=Soft enough to rebound of far rail back to headstring, Medium=2 rails to middle table, Fast=3 rails back to Footstring), but was surprised to find no adjustment was really needed as long as I was on the pivot point. However, because the fast speed requires more follow, with my closed bridge the shaft(s) unfortunately have a thicker taper such that when I shoot Fast, the width of the shaft forces open my Index finger on the Closed Bridge. So I actually slightly shorten the bridge and then reduce a fraction of FHE and that enabled me to adjust to target! Wow!
Now I just need to take some of that Taper off each of the Shafts combined with perhaps a slightly larger ferrule to hopefully keep the Pivot Point where it is without moving it further back! Obviously an open bridge theoretically may be a ”solution” but I’ve always preferred a Closed Bridge when using English.
After that, also using Dr.D’s material (Thank you Dr.D!) I set up “sentinel“ balls R&L at a corner pocket using a third ball the “align” them. I had forgotten Dr. D suggested a 1/2” on each side because I used like 2/16”! I used striped balls to shoot with so the English was the same by hitting on the Vertical middle, on each side toward target. I was frankly shocked that, with some practice, I was able to clear the “sentinel” balls from each of three spots on the table ( 1’ at both 1st diamonds, 3’ at the 35 mark just beyond the 2 Diamond Spot on the table, and around 6’ or longer from a spot on the 5th Diamond line on a 9ft Table). I was prepared to have to ”figure” out how much FHE -vs- BHE for each of 3 speeds (S,M,F corresponding from shooting CB from Headstring as follows : S=Soft enough to rebound of far rail back to headstring, Medium=2 rails to middle table, Fast=3 rails back to Footstring), but was surprised to find no adjustment was really needed as long as I was on the pivot point. However, because the fast speed requires more follow, with my closed bridge the shaft(s) unfortunately have a thicker taper such that when I shoot Fast, the width of the shaft forces open my Index finger on the Closed Bridge. So I actually slightly shorten the bridge and then reduce a fraction of FHE and that enabled me to adjust to target! Wow!
Now I just need to take some of that Taper off each of the Shafts combined with perhaps a slightly larger ferrule to hopefully keep the Pivot Point where it is without moving it further back! Obviously an open bridge theoretically may be a ”solution” but I’ve always preferred a Closed Bridge when using English.
If you need conv
If you need convincing to use an open bridge, see the video and list of advantages here:
If you need convincing to use an open bridge, see the video and list of advantages here:
SeniorTom
Well-known member
I have the opposite problem, I feel more comfortable with an open Bridge than a closed. I have been trying to incorporate a closed Bridge in appropriate settings where the shot somewhat requires it, but it's always a conscious challenge to remember to use a closed bridge. Each type of bridge is probably preferred in various situations, and I got to keep working at it. For example, putting some draw or follow on the cue ball would probably be best if a close Bridge were used.
Not true. See the video and info at the link above.
It’s a comfort thing. Draw and follow are the most likely to cause the shaft to jump up. I ignore it, but I can see how it might be distracting.
pj
chgo
Wayne Crimi
Member
When I first started playing (late 70s) almost everyone used a closed bridge. I remeber having debates about open vs closed, but closed was way more common. It wasn't until I started seeing smooker players some to the US that I started seeing more open bridges. I guess the snooker players were so accurate using an open bridge, people started copying them.
No, not necessarily -- we are all wired differently and have different bodies.
For some players a closed bridge will be a better choice than an open hand bridge. In most cases it is a very organic thing with players just feeling more comfortable with one choice vs the other.
We are not machines and there is no cookie cutter that makes us all the same.
Lou Figueroa
It’s funny. I played half my life ingrained to use the closed bridge. I adopted the open bridge while I was making a concerted effort to improve. I use open bridge for the vast majority of my shots (any and all uses of English). But I have noticed that sometimes I have a closed bridge. I noticed I have a few different bridges I use and I have no awareness of making a choice of which to use. So much of that is built into muscle memory and I play no part in the decision making process. It just happens.
The closed bridge used to be the go-to bridge for most pool players. Nowadays it is quite common for pool players to switch between an open and closed bridge from shot to shot. The primary benefit of the closed bridge is that it holds the cue in place more securely. This makes precision cuing more consistent on power shots, which come up more often in pool than they do in a game like snooker. Most professional pool players use a closed bridge on the majority of shots. Pocketing in pool is much easier than snooker, and cue ball control is typically more important. Pool players often have to send the cue ball from one side of the table to the other, or all the way around the table much more often than they do in snooker.
You've been in favor of an open bridge from the very beginning since it's what you use 100% of the time. But all instructors don't necessarily see it that way. I think in the world of pool today, based on the cloth and speed of the table with more bouncy rail cushions, a combination of both open and closed is the way to go and can be seen in tournaments with the pros.
The other factor why you choose to use an open bridge on all shots is because you have a "Gumby back" that allows you to
be a "noser" with the cue against the bottom of your chin for all shots. Finger loops would get in the way. I have a bad back to begin with. An ambulance would have to be called every time I played pool with the cue rubbing at the bottom of my chin like yours is.
Here's the same discussion 15 years ago right here on AZ: https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/opinions-on-open-vs-closed-bridge.154445/
You've been in favor of an open bridge from the very beginning since it's what you use 100% of the time. But all instructors don't necessarily see it that way. I think in the world of pool today, based on the cloth and speed of the table with more bouncy rail cushions, a combination of both open and closed is the way to go and can be seen in tournaments with the pros.
The other factor why you choose to use an open bridge on all shots is because you have a "Gumby back" that allows you to
be a "noser" with the cue against the bottom of your chin for all shots. Finger loops would get in the way. I have a bad back to begin with. An ambulance would have to be called every time I played pool with the cue rubbing at the bottom of my chin like yours is.
Here's the same discussion 15 years ago right here on AZ: https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/opinions-on-open-vs-closed-bridge.154445/
Last edited:
As you indicated, I think your issue may have to do with your 14.1 background. Back when everyone was playing 14.1 in our area, they played with shorter bridge lengths, stood a little taller, and hit closer to center, moving the cb with force more than spin. That's probably your style and your comfort zone.
When 9 ball players came on the scene in the 80s, particularly the road players from the West, they stood lower, had longer stroke lengths and played with a lot of spin and roll and had looser bridge loops.
In the end, it's really just a matter of personal preference. Both styles of play can run a rack.
I think of it as the Straight Pool method. I so enjoyed watching Ray Martin play 9 ball. The Straight pool showed in his choice of patterns.
Just watching the Shanghai Snooker and the power shots put on display are incredible. Not sure the "how often" but the "when needed " is incredible. The session just ended and they are stripping the table to recover.
The weight of the cueball is, well was a reason for a looped bridge. The coin op tables big balls would be my reason or perhaps excuse. 
The smaller snooker ball changes the equation.
The smaller snooker ball changes the equation.
Pro players in pool, snooker or any sport can do things we mere mortals at the game can only dream of doing. They could more than likely set up with the cue behind their back with an open or closed bridge and pull it off.
Pro trick shot artists certainly can. Here's an example of a closed bridge being used on every shot except for a couple.
Don't forget one handed or eyes closed.
Uninterrupted sight line and minimal friction with the bridge are the advantages I see with the open bridge. Setting a stable platform and employing sound mechanism to deliver the tip to the ball are my primary concerns. Loop bridge is an option I rarely find a need for (anymore).
Why would that be true? I use open and closed bridges on power shots with no difference in precision. Are you clenching your cue so it lifts out of your bridge?
pj
chgo