Buddy Hall - 9-Ball Rules
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SJDinPHX said:
I grew up on the push out version of nine ball and have gambled many times against strong players at both push out nine ball and Texas Express, but actually, your switch to one pocket is ironic as Texas Express nine ball is far more similar, strategically, to one pocket than push out nine ball ever was.
In both Texas Express nine ball and in one pocket, you can, and often do, play offense and defense together. If the offense is not executed, you have a chance for a good result anyway if you play the defensive aspect of the shot skillfully. When you miss the offense but execute the defense, your opponent cannot push but must play the position as it lies, your reward for having executed the defensive aspect of your shot skillfully. The conceptualization of shots having both offensive and defensive merit requires more creativity than any other shot occurring in pool. Strategically, the two way shot, indispensable in the games of one pocket and Texas Express nine ball, is, to me, the most compelling shot in all of pool. The two way shot is far less important, and far less rewarding, in push out nine ball.
The fact that you needed less of a spot in push out proves nothing in the context of this thread. It makes perfect sense that less weight was needed gambling against a superior player in the days of push out, but the reason was that the rules reduced the value of the better player's customary edge in defensive play and billiard knowledge, and helped the weaker player by reducing the penalty for position poorly played.
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Hooked
Lets solve all the intentional or unintentional hooks or safeties.
player A doesn't pocket the ball, Player B get ball in hand. This would speed it up even more for T.V. Fatboy would get to see some runouts, guys who got accidently hooked would have ball in hand, the boring safeties and the skillful kicks would be a thing of the past.
PS; I've played a lot of good players both ways, It's harder to beat the better players playing two foul.
I've played the way i mentioned above, it puts a premium on postition play and promotes dogging when you know your opponent will have ball in hand.
Lets solve all the intentional or unintentional hooks or safeties.
player A doesn't pocket the ball, Player B get ball in hand. This would speed it up even more for T.V. Fatboy would get to see some runouts, guys who got accidently hooked would have ball in hand, the boring safeties and the skillful kicks would be a thing of the past.
PS; I've played a lot of good players both ways, It's harder to beat the better players playing two foul.
I've played the way i mentioned above, it puts a premium on postition play and promotes dogging when you know your opponent will have ball in hand.
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I like ten ball on tight pockets in races to 9 at least. Lot less arguing about the rack, its hard as hell to string a lot of racks together on a tight breaking table. No ten on the break in the bottom pockets.
Call shot would be ok.
I have no interest in going back to spot shots, pushouts, or spotting on the break. It never seemed fair when Earl would make five balls on the break, scratch, and the next guy has to figure out a safety with a mess of balls spotted up.
I don't want to back to the days of seeing people practice spot shots an hour a day because it seemed like the biggest shot in the game other than the break.
Wasn't there some old legend who would always push out to a super thin cut he specialized in that other players couldn't make? Any time he hooked himself, he could push out to a situation that made him a favorite.
Call shot would be ok.
I have no interest in going back to spot shots, pushouts, or spotting on the break. It never seemed fair when Earl would make five balls on the break, scratch, and the next guy has to figure out a safety with a mess of balls spotted up.
I don't want to back to the days of seeing people practice spot shots an hour a day because it seemed like the biggest shot in the game other than the break.
Wasn't there some old legend who would always push out to a super thin cut he specialized in that other players couldn't make? Any time he hooked himself, he could push out to a situation that made him a favorite.
Black-Balled said:
But you are penalized if you think about .
You can push but now you are on one
Your opponent can take the shot or give it back. But remember you are on one and he has the advantage of not being able to take your push or play you safe and then getting ball in hand. While the penalty isn't as swift as in one foul you are differently on the defensive if you hook yourself. Learning to play good push out is not as easy as you think.
Take it easy. I DONT (caps for emphasis lol) literally watch anyone practice for an hour. I just remember people who would fixate on that one shot during their practice. With all the shots possible on a pool table, it seems stupid to spend an inordinate amount of time on just one.
I'm too young to ever remember pushout, maybe it is a great game, but I can't possibly believe it would help attract more fans or get pool on tv more.
If I was Cole Dixon, Worst, Lassiter,etc... I probably would want to give it a try. If I'm playing in an event like Reno where bums like me get to play pros, I don't like the idea of any time a pro is hooked, he can push out to a cut or bank that he has a much, much better chance of making than me. I want him to kick at the damn ball and maybe give me a decent (easy) chance maybe.
At the top level, it may be the best game. A great banker versus cut specialists etc.. more moving like one pocket which I love, but it just seems like this game makes the favorites have an even greater chance.
ESPN can try it between speed pool and trick shots and see if people start tuning in more lol.
I'm too young to ever remember pushout, maybe it is a great game, but I can't possibly believe it would help attract more fans or get pool on tv more.
If I was Cole Dixon, Worst, Lassiter,etc... I probably would want to give it a try. If I'm playing in an event like Reno where bums like me get to play pros, I don't like the idea of any time a pro is hooked, he can push out to a cut or bank that he has a much, much better chance of making than me. I want him to kick at the damn ball and maybe give me a decent (easy) chance maybe.
At the top level, it may be the best game. A great banker versus cut specialists etc.. more moving like one pocket which I love, but it just seems like this game makes the favorites have an even greater chance.
ESPN can try it between speed pool and trick shots and see if people start tuning in more lol.
........................................bud green said:Take it easy. I DONT (caps for emphasis lol) literally watch anyone practice for an hour. I just remember people who would fixate on that one shot during their practice. With all the shots possible on a pool table, it seems stupid to spend an inordinate amount of time on just one.
Tell that to Shane V. I hear he practices his break shot for hours and now he's consider one ,if not, the best 10 ball breaker in the world. Hmm Maybe you should consider your reasoning.
I'm too young to ever remember pushout, maybe it is a great game, but I can't possibly believe it would help attract more fans or get pool on tv more.
I didn't think the thread was about attracting more fans. silly me.
If I was Cole Dixon, Worst, Lassiter,etc... I probably would want to give it a try. If I'm playing in an event like Reno where bums like me get to play pros, I don't like the idea of any time a pro is hooked, he can push out to a cut or bank that he has a much, much better chance of making than me. I want him to kick at the damn ball and maybe give me a decent (easy) chance maybe.
Psst after he pushes take the shot and hook him. then you'll get ball in hand. Not because you got lucky or he unlucky but because of skill. Besides a pro can kick much better than a bum like you also.
At the top level, it may be the best game. A great banker versus cut specialists etc.. more moving like one pocket which I love, but it just seems like this game makes the favorites have an even greater chance.
I think that is Buddy's point, to bring back the skill and lose some of the luck which of course would mean the better player wins not the lucky bum.
ESPN can try it between speed pool and trick shots and see if people start tuning in more lol.
Dude all ESPN pool sucks. Perhaps it's ESPN and not the game or even the rules they use.
Alex,
When I spoke about call shot in 1 Pocket I was saying that I didn't understand why one pocket didn't have call shot, but allowed slop instead. To me it seems so out of place in such a high skill game.
When I spoke about call shot in 1 Pocket I was saying that I didn't understand why one pocket didn't have call shot, but allowed slop instead. To me it seems so out of place in such a high skill game.
The break happens once a game. Buddy's rules in the first post involve spot shots for 3 out of 5 changes. I'm sorry, but to me that's like changing the rules so basketball has more freethrows. Its the same boring shot. Important part of the game of course but what if shooters in basketball wanted any foul to mean free throws?
It also means a lot more time spent trying to spot balls when there are balls already near the spot. More time, arguments,etc...
Loser breaks? Not for me. No Archer 13 and out, Earl five-packs, chance to control the table? Most players I know think it only works to keep tourneys going where lesser players will stop coming if they never break.
What game is supposed to be the fast, exciting game of pool after all these changes? Why not just play 14.1, rotation, or one pocket at that point?
There are a lot of ways you can make games more skill/knowledge based. Back pocket, last pocket, require a bank, whatever... I just don't think making changes to the most popular game that make it less accessible at a time pool in general is dying is a great idea.
I play three cushion so I actually like watching pros kick more than I would like them pushing out. One pocket seems like a more natural game for shots like those.
Go ahead and blast me in red Pii but I'll live with agreeing with SJM about Texas Express and go on just wanting longer races on tight tables. Luck only lasts so long.
What's the most exciting shot in the history of nine ball? I'd bet most people would vote Efren's kick against Earl. With the new rules, it probably would never have happened.
The one thing that has always puzzled me about Buddy is the fact that the greatest nine ball position player in history never even bothered to take a shot at most major 14.1 tourneys. Archer learned it fast; why didn't Buddy even take a shot at some of those tourneys if he could win $$ even if he didn't prefer the game?
It also means a lot more time spent trying to spot balls when there are balls already near the spot. More time, arguments,etc...
Loser breaks? Not for me. No Archer 13 and out, Earl five-packs, chance to control the table? Most players I know think it only works to keep tourneys going where lesser players will stop coming if they never break.
What game is supposed to be the fast, exciting game of pool after all these changes? Why not just play 14.1, rotation, or one pocket at that point?
There are a lot of ways you can make games more skill/knowledge based. Back pocket, last pocket, require a bank, whatever... I just don't think making changes to the most popular game that make it less accessible at a time pool in general is dying is a great idea.
I play three cushion so I actually like watching pros kick more than I would like them pushing out. One pocket seems like a more natural game for shots like those.
Go ahead and blast me in red Pii but I'll live with agreeing with SJM about Texas Express and go on just wanting longer races on tight tables. Luck only lasts so long.
What's the most exciting shot in the history of nine ball? I'd bet most people would vote Efren's kick against Earl. With the new rules, it probably would never have happened.
The one thing that has always puzzled me about Buddy is the fact that the greatest nine ball position player in history never even bothered to take a shot at most major 14.1 tourneys. Archer learned it fast; why didn't Buddy even take a shot at some of those tourneys if he could win $$ even if he didn't prefer the game?
bud green said:
I'm with you on this point, Bud. Tighter pockets is a good idea. We need to make the runout special again. Still, I'll take a sightly different slant on it. In pro golf, conditions are toughened at the major championships. I'd like to see the same thing done in pro pool. Make the pockets super-tight in the major championship events, but medium-tight pockets should be good enough in all other events.
I completely agree on the bolded part anyway.Pii said:
IMO, the luck factor (of leaving someone safe unintentionally) appearing in a game is preferable to slanting the game to the benefit of a banker/ cutter/ combo-er, which is one of the things pushout does.
I maintain that there is no reason a person should be able to move the CB- and not play it from where it lies without significant penalty.