Buddy Hall position shot

Hal said:
Yeah I know he elevated. I watched him do it. He used a closed bridge from the rail. That in itself gives you plenty of elevation. I'm also using extreme bottom left english. As much as I can possibly put on the cue ball. Like 20 tips (according to some of you :D).

I didn't really have a question. I was just saying that it's a tough shot. I've since come close a time or two, but I still can't get the cue ball to come up table like he did. His cue ball hit the rail at about the same spot where he shot it. Mine hits way before that.
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Nothing wrong with trying to figure out why something isn't working the way we think it should and why. That's what the a forum is about, usually. Really, its a good thread.
 
I just tried the shot a few times. You need to get a lot of left english on the CB to get it to come back at that angle.

On contact you just need a sliding CB. But on my heavy nap table I have to start the shot off with a considerable amount of draw. On a faster table you wouldn't need to hit far below center.

Hardest part is judging the squirt.
 
showboat said:
To elevate your cue you would put draw on the ball...just like a jump shot...
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Exactly.

The amount of draw/spin is not entirely dependent on the absolute location of where the cue contacts the CB, but by how much offset there is between the line going through the cue (at impact) and the spherical center of the CB.

You can still execute a draw shot by hitting the top half (in relation to the table's surface) of the CB.

I guarantee that Buddy had a bit of backspin on the CB right after impact with the cue, due to the elevated cue stick.
 
jsp said:
I guarantee that Buddy had a bit of backspin on the CB right after impact with the cue, due to the elevated cue stick.
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I disagree. Buddy has this system he uses for english on the cb, his clock system. Everything is 11:00, 1:00, etc. He is so precise on where he hits the cb and he can repeat it over and over again. He is a big man and he could put more stuff on that cb without any visible effort than most players. His ability to repeat the shot over and over again and his precision of where he's hitting the cb are the reasons I believe that if he said no draw and just use left-hand spin, then that's got to be where he's hitting the cb. He's using 9:00 english and that's it.
 
The 30 and 90 degree rules are a fact. The cue ball is coming off the object ball 90 degrees to the line going to the pocket.

So this is 90 degree rule.

Thus at the time the cue ball hit the object ball, the cue ball was sliding - stun.

Use a striped ball as a cue ball. Shoot it to the far end of the table with draw hitting low. It initially has a backwards spin, then begins sliding, then develops a forward roll. (With most people shooting this shot that is - some can make it spin backwards all the way down table.)

Then as others pointed out, some tables have very fast cloth. A cue ball will maintain its backwards spin longer on a fast cloth table.

So what kind of cloth was on the table he made this shot on? If you are trying this on a slow cloth table, you may have difficulty getting the same results!

Note there is a shot called a "draw drag" shot. The cue ball starts out with a backwards spin, then turns into a sliding ball at the time it hits the object ball (stun).

30 and 90 degree rules [With cut shots]...

-Rolling ball comes off object ball at approx 30 degrees (to line of cue ball shot) or the angle of a peace sign made with your fingers.

-Sliding ball comes off object ball at 90 degrees to line with pocket (tangent).

Read about 30 and 90 degree rules here...
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/index.html
 
Rickw said:
I disagree. Buddy has this system he uses for english on the cb, his clock system. Everything is 11:00, 1:00, etc. He is so precise on where he hits the cb and he can repeat it over and over again. He is a big man and he could put more stuff on that cb without any visible effort than most players. His ability to repeat the shot over and over again and his precision of where he's hitting the cb are the reasons I believe that if he said no draw and just use left-hand spin, then that's got to be where he's hitting the cb. He's using 9:00 english and that's it.
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9 o'clock with a level stroke is different than 9 o'clock with a raised stroke.
 
this shot seems entirely doable with a tiny bit of a masse strok. if you change the initial line from cb to ob and add a slight arc to the line. maybe 1/4-1/2 inch of masse, the cue would have plenty of spin to come back. with zero draw. makes pocketing the ball a bit harder, but i believe it would be completely repeatable with a good stroke.
 
heyyyy buddy had a draw on the rock when he hit it. cueball rolling forward with a 9'o clock spin will NOT get it back. the key is elevation altho i havent seen the clip. buddy a legend but ask him to shoot that shot with a level 9 o'clock stroke and he'll be in that pool room for a longggg time. sheesh !!
 
Hal said:
Yeah I know he elevated. I watched him do it. He used a closed bridge from the rail. That in itself gives you plenty of elevation. I'm also using extreme bottom left english. As much as I can possibly put on the cue ball. Like 20 tips (according to some of you :D).

I didn't really have a question. I was just saying that it's a tough shot. I've since come close a time or two, but I still can't get the cue ball to come up table like he did. His cue ball hit the rail at about the same spot where he shot it. Mine hits way before that. Like this:
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I think we have to take into consideration that Buddy shot that shot in an obviously very fast table with new cloth (I saw the clip). If you're trying to duplicate that shot on a heavy nap, it's going to be difficult to get it that long.

I think because Buddy doesn't have to put as much speed on the cue to stun it, and so the spin has a chance to take off that long rail. With lots of speed, that cueball is going to come short, no two ways about it.
 
degenrat said:
this shot seems entirely doable with a tiny bit of a masse strok. if you change the initial line from cb to ob and add a slight arc to the line. maybe 1/4-1/2 inch of masse, the cue would have plenty of spin to come back. with zero draw. makes pocketing the ball a bit harder, but i believe it would be completely repeatable with a good stroke.
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I don't think so, when your close to the OB the backspin can be maintained fairly easily allowing the CB to draw and spin off the rail fairly easily. At that distance, after the cue ball curves the backspin is lost and it has acquired follow and will contact the rail at a flatter angle.

Besides the deflection adjustment as noted, the shot could be aimed a little on the fuller side because of the throw from the extreme english, thus giving it a slightly better angle to the rail. Theoretically, that is.
 
Hal said:
Yeah I know he elevated. I watched him do it. He used a closed bridge from the rail. That in itself gives you plenty of elevation. I'm also using extreme bottom left english. As much as I can possibly put on the cue ball. Like 20 tips (according to some of you :D).

I didn't really have a question. I was just saying that it's a tough shot. I've since come close a time or two, but I still can't get the cue ball to come up table like he did. His cue ball hit the rail at about the same spot where he shot it. Mine hits way before that. Like this:
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A lot of times people are scared to get familiar with running english. If I'm judging this angle correctly, it would be easier to use straight right english on this ball and come around three rails. You can let your stroke out, and it plays natural. I think this is what Buddy would do, if I'm judging the setup correctly. You can pull it back off the rail, but going three rails is a much easier way to get to the 9.
 
Matt_24 said:
A lot of times people are scared to get familiar with running english. If I'm judging this angle correctly, it would be easier to use straight right english on this ball and come around three rails. You can let your stroke out, and it plays natural. I think this is what Buddy would do, if I'm judging the setup correctly. You can pull it back off the rail, but going three rails is a much easier way to get to the 9.
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One of the things I've heard Buddy say numerous times is that there are usually 2, 3, and sometime more ways to get shape on the next shot. He's probably showing this way just in case there's traffic going for the 3 railer. JMO.
 
Rickw said:
One of the things I've heard Buddy say numerous times is that there are usually 2, 3, and sometime more ways to get shape on the next shot...
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I always say what goes forward will hit a rail and then come back! (Just need to use proper speed to get the cue ball to come back to where you want.)

And then I sometimes forget to factor in if it is a thin cut (cue ball will keep most of its speed) or full ball hit (cue ball will lose most of its speed).

So I'll hit thin cuts too fast sometimes or not hit full ball hits hard enough (when going forward to come back). But I have been "burned" enough times from my doing this that I'm beginning to think about this more often before shooting.

Also watch beginner players shooting and cue ball needs to come back to get on their next shot (they can't draw). Many times the cue ball will hit the far rail and begin to come back the right direction, but stops at the far rail. Had they shot with more speed, they would have had good shape.
 
I personally have a good draw shot, but if I can go three rails I prefer it because you CAN let your stroke out...because off of each rail to get from the 8 to where that 9 ball is, the cue will loose speed. If there is only the 8 and the 9 left, there can't be any traffic to interfere with position..right?
 
first off,,,everyone's stroke is different, so if joe blow says he uses follow, YOU might be able to do it with center. if buddy hall says he uses no draw,,,THAT'S HIM. the biggest mistake everyone makes is just because a great pro player can do something a certain way, don't think for a second that you can too. that is futile. you have to figure out your own way, given how you are presently playing.

in practice this shot doesn't require draw,,,it only requires spin. but two things,,,1...when the cb reaches the ob, it must be spinning clockwise(on this shot), and 2...the cb has the grab the cushion. now,,,you might be able to do it from 2 diamonds away, while bh can do it from the other end of the table.

when you hit the cb with english, the longer it has to travel, the more it will straighten itself out until it is rolling end over end. therefore, you must address the cb, IN YOUR WAY, so that it hits the ob with spin. since all players ahve different strokes, they must address the cb differently. for buddy hall, he can hit the cb with a spin stroke that will maintain,,,,for you, you can't.

and since bh has the stroke, not only can he give the cb spin, but he can do it with a smoother softer stroke that will allow the cb to grab the rail. and btw,,,just because hall says, "no draw", imo, that still means he can hit the cb below center, like 8 o'clock. to me, that is not a draw.
 
I don't see why everyone is getting hung up on hitting below center. Hitting below center can still give you any of follow, draw or stun depending on distance. It's not so much about where you address the cueball as what the cueball is doing when it reaches the object ball.
 
bruin70 said:
first off,,,everyone's stroke is different, so if joe blow says he uses follow, YOU might be able to do it with center. if buddy hall says he uses no draw,,,THAT'S HIM.

Once, when Buddy was feeling kind of sorry for me because he was loudly chortling after winning his match (standing right next to where I was bearing down on a tough shot & losing against Claude Bernatchez), the next day he was making amends by giving me a few tips. One of them was on the taper of my cue. He asked me to make a particular shot with my cue and I was unable to do so. He then handed me his cue which was a Meucci and I pocketed the object ball with accuracy and obtained the desired shape. I could not perform this shot with my cue but I could with his and it was because of the taper difference so often times it is not some God-like stroke that someone else possesses (although Buddy does have a god-like stroke) but a difference in equipment like shaft or taper or tip shape and sometimes simply more knowledge.
Warm Regards,
JoeyA
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Matt_24 said:
I personally have a good draw shot, but if I can go three rails I prefer it because you CAN let your stroke out...because off of each rail to get from the 8 to where that 9 ball is, the cue will loose speed. If there is only the 8 and the 9 left, there can't be any traffic to interfere with position..right?
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There is more than that left. You looked at a different pic. See post #1
 
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