buying blanks

[icon2]

Jeff, you might be going a little past the extreme.

that's a definite possibility!
i have that tendency . . .

There is so much public knowledge on cue making in this forum alone, You just have to read. The only things really missing is the individualism. But if you read you can get a feel for some of that too. Why do you think this section of the forum exists to begin with. The other part is why have so many cue makers left this forum? Answer, sideline bullshit and dis-respect.

that's part of online forums . . . but it wasn't my intent to show disrespect to anyone!

It's all here to see, Just read the forum. Anyone with common sence should know in the first 15 minutes of a conversation with a Cue maker, whether they want to invest in one of his cues or not. People may ask me, did you, I say yes, some might say why? and my answer is always the same, Because I want total control over what I do. I also let people in my shop as long as they follow certain rules,
1-The most important rule is my saftey.
2-Other than a repair, I don't build or run certain machinery when someone is here.
3- If I think your rude or a shithead, you can't come here.
4- If I invite you, what you see is no ones business.
5-If you touch anything, your out of here and quick too.
6-I try my best to be a Gentleman at all times, but if you break a rule, I turn to an @hole.
Did I miss anything. Cue makers are human too.

sounds like some pretty good rules . . .
appreciate the reply michael!

i was only trying to articulate what would make me feel more comfortable spending money on a cue.

 

[manwon]

This is a very interesting thread, and from what I see questions are not being answered with any validity. The person who started the thread asked a simple question, is it OK for Cue Makers to hide the fact from a perspective buyer that they are not really making the cues that they are selling!! He has never asked where anyone buys their materials, or if others would identify who they are selling their blanks and other materials to, in fact that has never been the point even though it is being brought up over and over.

Lets face it there is a big difference between today and thirty years ago. The first difference is the number of people who are building cues, and this is directly a result of the second difference which is the ease at which one can buy materials and machinery to make cues. In days past like others have said information was kept secret, and today anyone who wishes to learn cue building can do so by buying books and DVD's that get you started and save you money when purchasing equipment. Sources for materials are openly advertised on the INTERNET and on forums like this one. Now with all that said, today anyone who has the money can purchased what is necessary to build basic cues and their ability to learn along with the time to learn will be the only factors that will effect how far they can go and what they will achieve.

But, the main question that spured this thread was posed from a collectors stand point of view. When spending large dollars on custom cues should a collect be assured if they care in the first place what they are getting for their money. Should there be a disclosure if a cue maker is asked if he built the Blank and the components for a cue he is building for that customer? That is the question, not where he purchased parts, not who made the parts other than his part in building the cue.

Lets face it there are some highly respected cue makers who are very carefully avoiding these questions, or they are giving answers that are questions in themselves and this is a general statement not directed at anyone involved in this thread. Now is that acceptable, well in my opinion if a cue Maker doesn't answer questions asked by a customer he is hiding something, and this is where honesty and integrity come into play. This is where a smart buyer will say thank you for your time Sir, and find some one else to build them a cue. Buyers must be educated and currently there is more information available than ever before to learn from at everyones finger tips, so a buyer has no excuse either.

Now, the time is starting run short for those who wish to perpetuate a fraud, the days of the Robert Weirs in the cue building community are coming to an end even if they are High End Cue Makers. It is only a matter of time before those who are selling another's work get caught, because for many this is no longer exceptable. Today is not yesterday and many practices are no longer exceptable to many collectors and buyers alike. Because as buyers become more educated they are going to expect certain things and they going to ask more and more questions and expect a yes or no answer. Now for those who do not wish to answer and expect to get the big Dollars good luck, because for every single cue maker who conducts business this way there is a new cue maker who will step up and give a straight answer. Like it or not this is fact that can't be answered with another question or avoided the past is gone forever!!!!!

I will add, many here know exactly what I am saying and who some of the High end cue makers are that fall into the category I have outlined here. My problem with these practices are the people who will get screwed when information comes to light about their practices. If some one today were having a company build all the parts for their cues or even selling cues that are completely assembled by a company for instance such as Adam how should this be viewed. Especially if they are selling them as their own and getting lets say $1500 plus for each cue, is it right, should they answer questions if asked, is this an honest way to do business, these are the questions that should be answered and this is where honesty and integrity are a big factor.

Just my thoughts no offense intended to anyone and again my comments are generalized and not directed at anyone posting to this thread.

 

[Michael Webb]

that's part of online forums . . . but it wasn't my intent to show disrespect to anyone!
i was only trying to articulate what would make me feel more comfortable spending money on a cue.

The dis-respect part was not necessarily aimed at you, just in general. Quite a few of us try to answer some of the questions the best we can, but not every question deserves an answer.
Do you, will get answered where HOW, may not get answered. We have to pick and choose our answers and usually our arguments. Very tough sometimes.

 

[tikkler]

thanks

This is a very interesting thread, and from what I see questions are not being answered with any validity. The person who started the thread asked a simple question, is it OK for Cue Makers to hide the fact from a perspective buyer that they are not really making the cues that they are selling!! He has never asked where anyone buys their materials, or if others would identify who they are selling their blanks and other materials to, in fact that has never been the point even though it is being brought up over and over.

Lets face it there is a big difference between today and thirty years ago. The first difference is the number of people who are building cues, and this is directly a result of the second difference which is the ease at which one can buy materials and machinery to make cues. In days past like others have said information was kept secret, and today anyone who wishes to learn cue building can do so by buying books and DVD's that get you started and save you money when purchasing equipment. Sources for materials are openly advertised on the INTERNET and on forums like this one. Now with all that said, today anyone who has the money can purchased what is necessary to build basic cues and their ability to learn along with the time to learn will be the only factors that will effect how far they can go and what they will achieve.

But, the main question that spured this thread was posed from a collectors stand point of view. When spending large dollars on custom cues should a collect be assured if they care in the first place what they are getting for their money. Should there be a disclosure if a cue maker is asked if he built the Blank and the components for a cue he is building for that customer? That is the question, not where he purchased parts, not who made the parts other than his part in building the cue.

Lets face it there are some highly respected cue makers who are very carefully avoiding these questions, or they are giving answers that are questions in themselves and this is a general statement not directed at anyone involved in this thread. Now is that acceptable, well in my opinion if a cue Maker doesn't answer questions asked by a customer he is hiding something, and this is where honesty and integrity come into play. This is where a smart buyer will say thank you for your time Sir, and find some one else to build them a cue. Buyers must be educated and currently there is more information available than ever before to learn from at everyones finger tips, so a buyer has no excuse either.

Now, the time is starting run short for those who wish to perpetuate a fraud, the days of the Robert Weirs in the cue building community are coming to an end even if they are High End Cue Makers. It is only a matter of time before those who are selling another's work get caught, because for many this is no longer exceptable. Today is not yesterday and many practices are no longer exceptable to many collectors and buyers alike. Because as buyers become more educated they are going to expect certain things and they going to ask more and more questions and expect a yes or no answer. Now for those who do not wish to answer and expect to get the big Dollars good luck, because for every single cue maker who conducts business this way there is a new cue maker who will step up and give a straight answer. Like it or not this is fact that can't be answered with another question or avoided the past is gone forever!!!!!

I will add, many here know exactly what I am saying and who some of the High end cue makers are that fall into the category I have outlined here. My problem with these practices are the people who will get screwed when information comes to light about their practices. If some one today were having a company build all the parts for their cues or even selling cues that are completely assembled by a company for instance such as Adam how should this be viewed. Especially if they are selling them as their own and getting lets say $1500 plus for each cue, is it right, should they answer questions if asked, is this an honest way to do business, these are the questions that should be answered and this is where honesty and integrity are a big factor.

Just my thoughts no offense intended to anyone and again my comments are generalized and not directed at anyone posting to this thread.

Craig, I thank you for clearly and coherently expressing my exact thoughts.


Steve

 

[cueman]

This is a very interesting thread, and from what I see questions are not being answered with any validity. The person who started the thread asked a simple question, is it OK for Cue Makers to hide the fact from a perspective buyer that they are not really making the cues that they are selling!! He has never asked where anyone buys their materials, or if others would identify who they are selling their blanks and other materials to, in fact that has never been the point even though it is being brought up over and over.

Lets face it there is a big difference between today and thirty years ago. The first difference is the number of people who are building cues, and this is directly a result of the second difference which is the ease at which one can buy materials and machinery to make cues. In days past like others have said information was kept secret, and today anyone who wishes to learn cue building can do so by buying books and DVD's that get you started and save you money when purchasing equipment. Sources for materials are openly advertised on the INTERNET and on forums like this one. Now with all that said, today anyone who has the money can purchased what is necessary to build basic cues and their ability to learn along with the time to learn will be the only factors that will effect how far they can go and what they will achieve.

But, the main question that spured this thread was posed from a collectors stand point of view. When spending large dollars on custom cues should a collect be assured if they care in the first place what they are getting for their money. Should there be a disclosure if a cue maker is asked if he built the Blank and the components for a cue he is building for that customer? That is the question, not where he purchased parts, not who made the parts other than his part in building the cue.

Lets face it there are some highly respected cue makers who are very carefully avoiding these questions, or they are giving answers that are questions in themselves and this is a general statement not directed at anyone involved in this thread. Now is that acceptable, well in my opinion if a cue Maker doesn't answer questions asked by a customer he is hiding something, and this is where honesty and integrity come into play. This is where a smart buyer will say thank you for your time Sir, and find some one else to build them a cue. Buyers must be educated and currently there is more information available than ever before to learn from at everyones finger tips, so a buyer has no excuse either.

Now, the time is starting run short for those who wish to perpetuate a fraud, the days of the Robert Weirs in the cue building community are coming to an end even if they are High End Cue Makers. It is only a matter of time before those who are selling another's work get caught, because for many this is no longer exceptable. Today is not yesterday and many practices are no longer exceptable to many collectors and buyers alike. Because as buyers become more educated they are going to expect certain things and they going to ask more and more questions and expect a yes or no answer. Now for those who do not wish to answer and expect to get the big Dollars good luck, because for every single cue maker who conducts business this way there is a new cue maker who will step up and give a straight answer. Like it or not this is fact that can't be answered with another question or avoided the past is gone forever!!!!!

I will add, many here know exactly what I am saying and who some of the High end cue makers are that fall into the category I have outlined here. My problem with these practices are the people who will get screwed when information comes to light about their practices. If some one today were having a company build all the parts for their cues or even selling cues that are completely assembled by a company for instance such as Adam how should this be viewed. Especially if they are selling them as their own and getting lets say $1500 plus for each cue, is it right, should they answer questions if asked, is this an honest way to do business, these are the questions that should be answered and this is where honesty and integrity are a big factor.

Just my thoughts no offense intended to anyone and again my comments are generalized and not directed at anyone posting to this thread.

You make some excellent points. And I agree with most of them. But one point you fail to make is that Robert Weir cues are worth more on the collectors market by far than they originally sold for. I even have one in my collection. Verl Horn cues sell for more on the collectors market than he charged. Balabushka cues sell for many times more. Countless others who used blanks and never advertised that they did, also bring more on the collectors market than they originally sold for. I suspect two of the top sought after cues in the world use Prather blanks and I doubt it will ever hurt their value either. The final product still speaks for itself.

 

[tikkler]

hey

You make some excellent points. And I agree with most of them. But one point you fail to make is that Robert Weir cues are worth more on the collectors market by far than they originally sold for. I even have one in my collection. Verl Horn cues sell for more on the collectors market than he charged. Balabushka cues sell for many times more. Countless others who used blanks and never advertised that they did, also bring more on the collectors market than they originally sold for. I suspect two of the top sought after cues in the world use Prather blanks and I doubt it will ever hurt their value either. The final product still speaks for itself.

Times have changed my friend.....I loved the sixties too LOL, but times have changed.

If 2 of the top sought after cues in the world are using someone else blanks and maybe more, WHY are they keeping it a secret if it would have no effect on there sales prices.
Lets just suppose for a minute that you are right, and there are two guys doing this. These are individuals that are seen as highly skilled craftsman and revered in the cuemaking world as celebritys. There skills are constantly being talked about and compared as in the top ten lists and so forth.

Do there customers know they buy there blanks NO

would they tell them NO

Would there value drop YES

Are they being honest NO

What I just cant understand is if you can make a statement like you did, that you suspect 2 of the top cuemakers are using Prather blanks..........why you cant see the point I am making?

Steve

 

[manwon]

You make some excellent points. And I agree with most of them. But one point you fail to make is that Robert Weir cues are worth more on the collectors market by far than they originally sold for. I even have one in my collection. Verl Horn cues sell for more on the collectors market than he charged. Balabushka cues sell for many times more. Countless others who used blanks and never advertised that they did, also bring more on the collectors market than they originally sold for. I suspect two of the top sought after cues in the world use Prather blanks and I doubt it will ever hurt their value either. The final product still speaks for itself.

Chris, thanks for your reply but while I can agree with part of what you said, I have to disagree with other parts. Yes Robert Weir cues are more valuable today than they were in the early 80's when they were made, but they have never reached the value they would obtain if he had indeed made them. Like I said above the past is the past and collectors and buyers in general are becoming much more educated on the subject. This is greatly due to people like yourself who have offered your knowledge to the general public through books and DVDs on the subject, while some will use the information you provide to build cues others will use it understand cue construction to become more educated buyers. Today, especially on high end cues a smart buyer is going to have expectations and this will lead to questions, where as in the past no one was concerned with such details only playability or the name of the builder.


Lets face it as more people become educated more and more questions will be asked and more and more expectations on the buyers part will be brought forward, I suspect it is the nature of the beast. On the point of using another's blanks to some it certainly doesn't matter, but the question is should the Maker be honest to the buyer about it if asked? in my mind the only answer is yes. Why should some one not be honest unless they are intentionally perpetuating a fraudulent business transaction. If the buyer doesn't care he will buy the cue anyway, if he does he will find a different builder which there is no shortage of today, unlike years ago when your choices were limited and knowledge was not so freely available.

It is like anything else education changes perceptions and it can go in directions no one ever suspected the contributions you have made through Machinery and your Book / DVD are a major part of this. In my opinion for those Makers you spoke of above who do not really build their cues from start to finish, they will at some point have the value of their cues hurt by continuing to hide this fact, and their are going to be some pissed off people who are holding thier cues. I also think that it should effect the value personally, because no matter how nice the finished product is finishing something is only part of the process, and a Master Craftsman is a master at all phases from start to finish. Lets face it, the time some one takes to perfect their craft, along with the man hour's required to build a cue are contributing factors when considering a cues cost, when all the cues parts are purchased the man hour's are cut in half. In addition why should some one be paid the same amount of money for a product that some one else is paid who does build their cues from start to finish and who can produce an equally nice product with their own hands. In no other business that works with wood in this country do people get paid the Big Dollars for buying parts and assembling a product, the sought after items are those handcrafted by a specific individual who puts himself into his product.

I suppose in the end, it is up to the buyer, but should cues be any different than any other form of building in the wood industry, and I think that this is what it is coming to in the near future. Lets face it today, anyone who builds can make their own Blanks, Billet Rings, laminated handles, cut their own inlays and apply finish to their own cue. The knowledge and equipment to do so is easily available, and only a persons wallet and personal abilities will stop them from achieving great things. Many buyers expect this today, especially for High End cues and like I said before the days are numbered for those who can't change with the times or continue to be dishonest and deceptive about their products.

Take care Chris

 

[pescadoman]

I don't think there is any point that it would be wrong. If you feel it is in any way wrong only deal with cuemakers who build it all themselves. The final product speaks for itself. Would you start going through a custom cue and ask the maker about each and every part in his cue whether he installed each ring, point or inlay? And want a break down on which parts he did and which ones one of his helpers did? Is there a difference between a helper in your shop or a helper that helps you from another shop? Are you implying that if a cuemaker signs his brand name to the cue that he should have done 100% of the work to the cue or else he is doing someone wrong?

I have BROWSED through this and agree that it doesn't matter where the parts come from really. As Chris pointed out, the final product speaks for itself.

Prather, Schmelke, Davis, Spain, ect. The blank itself is just part of the whole.

In the end, it is the maker who get's the responsibility, credit, and BLAME for a good or a bad cue.

I'm new here, so flame away..LOL

BTW. How about a good source for quatersawn maple?

 

[cueaddicts]

Got to admit, it's an interesting and provocative thread. :thumbup: It's too bad feathers always seem to get ruffled with stuff like this, though.

 

[rhncue]

I've been staying out of this till now. Each cue maker, including myself, has his own standards and parameters and I'm certainly no one to decide what others should be. When I first starting building cues I used some of Prathers veneered points. They are good points and I've got nothing against them except that they aren't mine. I'm not set up to make full splice butts so I buy full splice blanks to make Trappers out of, which, I always disclose. When Duc was selling those veneered full splice Chinese blanks I bought 10 of them. I still have 9 as I can't bring it onto myself to use a Chinese blank in one of my cues. There is nothing wrong with these blanks but being Chinese they just have a stigma about them. The one that I used was the green veneered one that Falcon used for the Predator cues. A guy seen the blanks and wanted one for his Predator shaft and I charged him the same price as a Trapper.

If ferrules, shafts or even deco rings are purchased nearly ready for installation I see no harm not telling people that. I do believe a cue maker should disclose when a major component is used however. It can really affect the resale price of the cue down the road.

Dick

 

[cueman]

Times have changed my friend.....I loved the sixties too LOL, but times have changed.

If 2 of the top sought after cues in the world are using someone else blanks and maybe more, WHY are they keeping it a secret if it would have no effect on there sales prices.
Lets just suppose for a minute that you are right, and there are two guys doing this. These are individuals that are seen as highly skilled craftsman and revered in the cuemaking world as celebritys. There skills are constantly being talked about and compared as in the top ten lists and so forth.

Do there customers know they buy there blanks NO

would they tell them NO

Would there value drop YES

Are they being honest NO

What I just cant understand is if you can make a statement like you did, that you suspect 2 of the top cuemakers are using Prather blanks..........why you cant see the point I am making?

Steve

I do not think it would matter if the whole world knew they got their blanks from Prather. They are not being dishonest! They are not saying if they made them themselves or had a helper make them or bought them.
I can see the point you are making. But did you not say there is no difference between having a helper make the blanks in their shop or buying them elsewhere. I doubt anyone would have a problem with any top cue maker having a helper build his blanks in his own shop. A helper in my shop or up the street or across the country makes very little difference to me. I have traded work with various cuemakers through the years. And we never credited each other for what was done by the other one.
But since those cues made with blanks were made dishonestly. I would like to buy all of your Balabushkas for let's say 20 times what George charged for his dishonest work. His average was about a $100 per cue for the cues you have as best guess. So let's be generous and make it forty times what he charged and I will try to buy your Bushka collection for $4000 per cue. I can see the point you are making, but you refuse to see the other side of it. No one is being dishonest unless they outright say they built the point blank from scratch in their shop. If they do not say that, then they are not being dishonest. Full disclosure is not something they owe anyone. You have invented your own modern standard of cue building morality and are trying to preach it to others and are upset that you are not getting us all to convert to your modern morality standard. I am a preacher myself, so I understand your frustration. I preach old fashion Bible morality and I don't get many converts either.
But my offer stands. If your conscience cannot allow you to live with yourself knowing you possess cues that were originally built with deceptive methods by a dishonest Hall of Fame crook, I will give you $4000 per Bushka for your whole collection so you can sleep better at night. :thumbup:

 

[cueman]

Chris, thanks for your reply but while I can agree with part of what you said, I have to disagree with other parts. Yes Robert Weir cues are more valuable today than they were in the early 80's when they were made, but they have never reached the value they would obtain if he had indeed made them. Like I said above the past is the past and collectors and buyers in general are becoming much more educated on the subject. This is greatly due to people like yourself who have offered your knowledge to the general public through books and DVDs on the subject, while some will use the information you provide to build cues others will use it understand cue construction to become more educated buyers. Today, especially on high end cues a smart buyer is going to have expectations and this will lead to questions, where as in the past no one was concerned with such details only playability or the name of the builder.


Lets face it as more people become educated more and more questions will be asked and more and more expectations on the buyers part will be brought forward, I suspect it is the nature of the beast. On the point of using another's blanks to some it certainly doesn't matter, but the question is should the Maker be honest to the buyer about it if asked? in my mind the only answer is yes. Why should some one not be honest unless they are intentionally perpetuating a fraudulent business transaction. If the buyer doesn't care he will buy the cue anyway, if he does he will find a different builder which there is no shortage of today, unlike years ago when your choices were limited and knowledge was not so freely available.

It is like anything else education changes perceptions and it can go in directions no one ever suspected the contributions you have made through Machinery and your Book / DVD are a major part of this. In my opinion for those Makers you spoke of above who do not really build their cues from start to finish, they will at some point have the value of their cues hurt by continuing to hide this fact, and their are going to be some pissed off people who are holding thier cues. I also think that it should effect the value personally, because no matter how nice the finished product is finishing something is only part of the process, and a Master Craftsman is a master at all phases from start to finish. Lets face it, the time some one takes to perfect their craft, along with the man hour's required to build a cue are contributing factors when considering a cues cost, when all the cues parts are purchased the man hour's are cut in half. In addition why should some one be paid the same amount of money for a product that some one else is paid who does build their cues from start to finish and who can produce an equally nice product with their own hands. In no other business that works with wood in this country do people get paid the Big Dollars for buying parts and assembling a product, the sought after items are those handcrafted by a specific individual who puts himself into his product.

I suppose in the end, it is up to the buyer, but should cues be any different than any other form of building in the wood industry, and I think that this is what it is coming to in the near future. Lets face it today, anyone who builds can make their own Blanks, Billet Rings, laminated handles, cut their own inlays and apply finish to their own cue. The knowledge and equipment to do so is easily available, and only a persons wallet and personal abilities will stop them from achieving great things. Many buyers expect this today, especially for High End cues and like I said before the days are numbered for those who can't change with the times or continue to be dishonest and deceptive about their products.

Take care Chris

Unless they outright say that they built the blanks from scratch in their own shop, then they are not being dishonest or deceptive. If they say they had a helper build them for them that is fine. But they really are under no moral or ethical obligation to disclose anything. I whole heartedly agree they should not say they made it from scratch if they bought the blank. If they make that claim then they are being deceptive and dishonest. But to say they are obligated to disclose what they do is wrong to me. They could just reply that they don't reveal the sources of their parts. If the customer then does not like that answer they could shop elsewhere.

 

[manwon]

Unless they outright say that they built the blanks from scratch in their own shop, then they are not being dishonest or deceptive. If they say they had a helper build them for them that is fine. But they really are under no moral or ethical obligation to disclose anything. I whole heartedly agree they should not say they made it from scratch if they bought the blank. If they make that claim then they are being deceptive and dishonest. But to say they are obligated to disclose what they do is wrong to me. They could just reply that they don't reveal the sources of their parts. If the customer then does not like that answer they could shop elsewhere.

They could just reply that they don't reveal the sources of their parts. If the customer then does not like that answer they could shop elsewhere.[/

This is exactly what many High end Collectors are starting to do, like I said if a Cue Maker can't give some one an honest direct and straight forward answer if asked by a Customer, then that is exactly what the Customer should do. There are just too many Cue Makers who are building their Blanks and Components to choose from these days. I suspect that Steve is one of those High End Collectors who follows the above guidelines when he buys a Cue that is not an Antique Collectible.

Take Care Chris

 

[icon2]

If ferrules, shafts or even deco rings are purchased nearly ready for installation I see no harm not telling people that. I do believe a cue maker should disclose when a major component is used however. It can really affect the resale price of the cue down the road.

Dick

dick, appreciate your comments!