California Cue-Makers - No More Ivory......

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USA is the only country in the world to have dropped a nuke on a civilian population.

The only country.

And USA only beat the Germans by a few weeks in developing it.
That was because God sent Einstein to the good guys.
But, if you think Hitler was a better person than the US forces, more power to you.
And you have no clue what the Japanese Imperial army did to the rest of Asia.
 
And USA only beat the Germans by a few weeks in developing it.
That was because God sent Einstein to the good guys.
But, if you think Hitler was a better person than the US forces, more power to you.

Your version of history is off. Germany was already defeated by the time the US decided to commit one of the worst (yet condoned) atrocities of the war.

This has nothing to do with Hitler. But you go ahead and believe your little fairy tale.
 
This meaningless conversation is only about the dislike of America by our Canadian brethren.
 
This meaningless conversation is only about the dislike of America by our Canadian brethren.

You're wrong, I don't dislike America.

I dislike self-entitled Americans and people from other countries with the same attitude.

Nothing I've said is untrue.

- America is actively pursuing hegemony under the guise of being world police.
- America is the only country in the world to drop a nuclear device on a civilian population
 
Dear Supergreenman,

Actually the A bomb and Hitler are tied together in that Germany's own race to build one was only slightly behind the U.S development of the same product.

You are right, we did drop the A-bomb on Japan and a lot of innocent folks were incinerated. That came about for 2 reasons- Japanese leaders would not surrender and in order to win a war you punish the other side until they quit.

Harry Truman's willingness to do so saved hundreds of thousands of Allied soldiers (maybe even your great grandfather) from dying in an invasion of Japan.

So you might thank Harry Truman for making it possible for you , I, and others to squabble about ivory or anything else. We are now so distant from a World War that many have forgotten the suffering, death, and misery associated with that type event. 9-11-3000 deaths, Normandy-100,000 plus. Normand was only ONE battle. Ponder that while you are complaining about the U.S. and her actions.
 
Dear Supergreenman,

Actually the A bomb and Hitler are tied together in that Germany's own race to build one was only slightly behind the U.S development of the same product.

You are right, we did drop the A-bomb on Japan and a lot of innocent folks were incinerated. That came about for 2 reasons- Japanese leaders would not surrender and in order to win a war you punish the other side until they quit.

Harry Truman's willingness to do so saved hundreds of thousands of Allied soldiers (maybe even your great grandfather) from dying in an invasion of Japan.

So you might thank Harry Truman for making it possible for you , I, and others to squabble about ivory or anything else. We are now so distant from a World War that many have forgotten the suffering, death, and misery associated with that type event. 9-11-3000 deaths, Normandy-100,000 plus. Normand was only ONE battle. Ponder that while you are complaining about the U.S. and her actions.


History doesn't agree with you...

Norman Cousins, the famed author and magazine editor, who was an aide to Gen. Douglas MacArthur, who directed the U.S. war in the Pacific, and would soon become the head of our occupation of Japan : "MacArthur's views about the decision to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were starkly different from what the general public supposed....When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor." Both Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower and Truman's chief of staff, Admiral William Leahy, had voiced protest about using the bomb over Japanese cities.
 
NO the answer is ENFORCEMENT OF THE EXISTING LAWS. Here is simple for you. The demand will not DECREASE by making items that already have IVORY IN THEM illegal to own, sell or trade. In fact, as shown an all other examples, the opposite will likely happen.

So keep up the fairy tail that more legislation will save the elephants. IN 20 years you can I can buy tickets to see the last one.

BTW ivory sells between 150/200 US a lb. Last I checked maybe a cuemaker can chime in.

JV

So, the answer is "more guns". Right. If you can't beat them, kill them. I'm not sure if you're conservative, or communist. That seems to be right in line with the thoughts of every single dictator known to man.

You say I don't understand demand, yet you say pretty much exactly what I've said, to correct my misunderstanding of demand. Hmmm.....

Plain and simple - supply and demand. The model for all economics. Where supply and demand meet, you get the equilibrium price. We experience this in day to day items like detergent, toothpaste, etc. The market has set the price, the consumer buys the item, and if they don't like the price of Brand A, they buy the cheaper brand B, and Brand A either goes out of business, or changes their price to reflect the market. Ivory - there is a shortage of "supply", because your supply source is a living, breathing animal. Similar to sheep's wool. The issue with ivory is that it had the "potential" to be a sustainable resource. We can shear a sheep many times. Virgin wool is the first cut, but other cuts of the sheep's coat are still functional. We could just wait for the tusks to fall off, harvest them, without issue.

However, when demand exceeds supply, higher prices can be demanded, due to the economic phenomenon called "scarcity". If you have one item that 10 people want, you can charge more, because consumers will compete with each other. This is what has occurred in the ivory market. Your source of ivory is dwindling on a daily basis, because a dead elephant cannot produce ivory. Meanwhile, the world population is increasing. So, you have more people bidding for less resources. That is why the price is high, and it will do nothing but get higher. The reason poaching is even a viable business is because of this ridiculous world market value of ivory. $1500-2000 per pound, times 150 pounds (weight of a tusk) times 2 (two tusks) is $450-600k. That's the economic value of an African Elephant. That buys a lot of guns for a warlord in Africa. So, regardless of what you think about you and your "needs", and how they don't contribute to the killing of those elephants all over the world....the simple fact that you will pay a ludicrous sum of money for the "pre ban" ivory sets the water mark for the fair market value of ivory...which in turn allows a warlord to do some simple math, and figure out that killing elephants is pretty darn economically profitable, although short lived.

Did I make that simple enough for you to follow? I can hardly wait to hear what part I screwed up this time....
 
As usual Shawn has misrepresented the truth. The ivory confiscated in both crushes, were nationally seized, over how long, never mentioned.

JV

The question that begs to be answered is whether the ivory that was destroyed in NY and Denver was collected during attempted importation or during attempts to export the material.

The FWLS is vague if not outright silent on this.

If anyone chooses to clarify this one way or another, it would be most helpful to provide links to documentation as opposed to links to news stories which tend to sensationalize the public event.

Thanks.
 
Dear Supergreenman,

Actually the A bomb and Hitler are tied together in that Germany's own race to build one was only slightly behind the U.S development of the same product.

You are right, we did drop the A-bomb on Japan and a lot of innocent folks were incinerated. That came about for 2 reasons- Japanese leaders would not surrender and in order to win a war you punish the other side until they quit.

Harry Truman's willingness to do so saved hundreds of thousands of Allied soldiers (maybe even your great grandfather) from dying in an invasion of Japan.

So you might thank Harry Truman for making it possible for you , I, and others to squabble about ivory or anything else. We are now so distant from a World War that many have forgotten the suffering, death, and misery associated with that type event. 9-11-3000 deaths, Normandy-100,000 plus. Normand was only ONE battle. Ponder that while you are complaining about the U.S. and her actions.

Both my Grandfathers served during WWII.

No, the US wasn’t justified in dropping the bomb. Even secretary of war Henry Lewis Stimson was not sure the bombs were needed to reduce the need of an invasion: “Japan had no allies; its navy was almost destroyed; its islands were under a naval blockade; and its cities were undergoing concentrated air attacks.”

The United States still had many industrial resources to use against Japan, and thus it was essentially defeated. Rear Admiral Tocshitane Takata concurred that B-29s “were the greatest single factor in forcing Japan's surrender”, while Prince Konoye already thought Japan was defeated on 14 February 1945 when he met emperor Hirohito.

A combination of thoroughly bombing blockading cities that were economically dependent on foreign sources for food and raw materials, and the threat of Soviet entry in the war, would have been enough.
 
BTW.. 7 tons @ 2200# per = 15,400 lbs = 2,310,000 dollars on the 150 per pound rate.

Would have bought a lot of enforcement, weapons, night vision goggles, better arms etc.. plus denting the market for availability...

How many elephants died to make that loss up? So these crushed achieved what? Drove the price up, and killed more elephants. You cannot deny this.. we know this is what happened. Since 1989 over 70 tons has been destroyed, 230 million dollars to dent the market AND build anti-poaching armies..

But the WWF/FLS wouldn't have been able to hide the money.. oh well..

JV
 
... and we thought we had Al Queda and Isis defeated a number of times to... look how that has worked out so far....

JV

Both my Grandfathers served during WWII.

No, the US wasn’t justified in dropping the bomb. Even secretary of war Henry Lewis Stimson was not sure the bombs were needed to reduce the need of an invasion: “Japan had no allies; its navy was almost destroyed; its islands were under a naval blockade; and its cities were undergoing concentrated air attacks.”

The United States still had many industrial resources to use against Japan, and thus it was essentially defeated. Rear Admiral Tocshitane Takata concurred that B-29s “were the greatest single factor in forcing Japan's surrender”, while Prince Konoye already thought Japan was defeated on 14 February 1945 when he met emperor Hirohito.

A combination of thoroughly bombing blockading cities that were economically dependent on foreign sources for food and raw materials, and the threat of Soviet entry in the war, would have been enough.
 
... and we thought we had Al Queda and Isis defeated a number of times to... look how that has worked out so far....

JV

That's funny. I thought it took more than soldiers and bombs to defeat an idea.

By the way Isis is an Egyptian Goddess, the group you are referring to is called Daesh.
 
As usual Shawn has misrepresented the truth. The ivory confiscated in both crushes, were nationally seized, over how long, never mentioned.

JV

Lol. "As usual". I've posted links from reputable news agencies and magazines that would face charges if they made false claims. Sean posts an article from one PhD, and you cling to it as gospel. I post a link to 24 experts that rebutted everything in Stiles' editorial, and the response was "mumbo jumbo".

Again, the amount of deflecting in this thread is ridiculous. "It's not us, it's the Asians!".
 
Prices for ivory haven't changed in over 10 years. In raw form for ferrules, joints, buttcaps.

I gues either the demand is not as great or the supply is not as low as the Canadians would like to believe. Otherwise there would be no way the price would be constant over a 10 year span.

It hasn't even changed adjusting for inflation of the dollar.

This is a fact. Not that it will deter anyone here on this forum. Who needs facts anyway.
 
Prices for ivory haven't changed in over 10 years. In raw form for ferrules, joints, buttcaps.

I gues either the demand is not as great or the supply is not as low as the Canadians would like to believe. Otherwise there would be no way the price would be constant over a 10 year span.

It hasn't even changed adjusting for inflation of the dollar.

This is a fact. Not that it will deter anyone here on this forum. Who needs facts anyway.

http://time.com/2953056/african-elephant-poaching-soars-as-ivory-prices-triple-in-china/

That's from TIME magazine. Again, one of the 300 million telling us what the other 7 billion should know. Love it.
 
I wonder what the price of ivory would be in China had those tons of ivory not been crushed or burned.
 
As usual Shawn has misrepresented the truth. The ivory confiscated in both crushes, were nationally seized, over how long, never mentioned.

JV

Actually one of the links in that post states the "Denver ivory" was collected over a 25 year period.
 
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