Calling a ball FROZEN right after the shot??

[Kamikazecuetips]

Was playing One Pocket the other night with two other people. They were playing against each other, while was waiting my turn. One guy called a ball FROZEN right after my friend shot. They got into an argument....I played devil's advocate and said, "opponent needs to call it FROZEN before the shot." What do you guys think?

 

[Shannon.spronk]

Yeah has to be called frozen before the shot.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Was playing One Pocket the other night with two other people. They were playing against each other, while was waiting my turn. One guy called a ball FROZEN right after my friend shot. They got into an argument....I played devil's advocate and said, "opponent needs to call it FROZEN before the shot." What do you guys think?[/SIZE]

How can you determine whether it was frozen prior to the shot if you look at it after the shot? (Assuming it was hit on the shot) The actual rule says (in part):

A ball is assumed not to be frozen to any rail unless it is declared frozen by the referee, the shooter, or the opponent.
​

Since there was no declaration before the shot, it was not frozen at the time of the shot regardless of what is determined later. The same goes for the cue ball frozen to an object ball -- they are assumed not to be frozen unless called before the shot.

 

[Kamikazecuetips]

How can you determine whether it was frozen prior to the shot if you look at it after the shot? (Assuming it was hit on the shot) The actual rule says (in part):

A ball is assumed not to be frozen to any rail unless it is declared frozen by the referee, the shooter, or the opponent.
​

Since there was no declaration before the shot, it was not frozen at the time of the shot regardless of what is determined later. The same goes for the cue ball frozen to an object ball -- they are assumed not to be frozen unless called before the shot.

That's what I thought....thanks for the rules.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I would venture to guess, in the last 10 times either me or my opponents have called a ball frozen, closer examination has proven otherwise at least 6 times. Regardless of your personal success rate, it's important to have that conversation and actually declare a ball frozen. Oftentimes, it's not.

 

[johnhardy]

A ball frozen to the rail or to another ball needs to be called frozen before the shot. Also, if it is called frown and the player takes a totally different shot and goes back to the ball in question it needs to be called again (as it could have moved due to vibration).

 

[Inaction]

I watched a game in a match back when the opponent had to call the ball frozen before you shot for it to be frozen,

A & B were trying to freeze the 8 ball to the rail by taking turns tapping it. A shoots and B immediately looked at it and called it frozen, then took his shot by tapping the 8.

Of course, a referee was called, and the ruling was that since the opponent did not call it froze, it was not froze.

Cheap shot from a guy I wouldn't associate with.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

A ball frozen to the rail or to another ball needs to be called frozen before the shot. Also, if it is called frown and the player takes a totally different shot and goes back to the ball in question it needs to be called again (as it could have moved due to vibration).

Yes, you make an excellent point and I was once in an argument over something like that once. Once you declare a ball frozen, that declaration expires after the very next shot. If you wish that ball to have frozen properties again, you must go through the same process as before and call it frozen before the next shot.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Of course, a referee was called, and the ruling was that since the opponent did not call it froze, it was not froze.

Cheap shot from a guy I wouldn't associate with.

Bad call by the ref, according to the rule quoted above. It's hard to find good help. Actually, the ref should have forfeited the shooter out of the match for trying to pull that stunt.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Once you declare a ball frozen, that declaration expires after the very next shot. ...

Which rule is that according to?

 

[Spimp13]

Which rule is that according to?

Yeah I don't think that is right. You would literally have to call the same ball frozen after each shot you shoot? That doesn't make sense at all. Now if a ball touched it I can see having to declare it again after that shot...but you don't need to do it after each shot you shoot if nothing touches it (as well as no body bumps the table trying to get it unfrozen lol).

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Yeah I don't think that is right. You would literally have to call the same ball frozen after each shot you shoot? That doesn't make sense at all. Now if a ball touched it I can see having to declare it again after that shot...but you don't need to do it after each shot you shoot if nothing touches it (as well as no body bumps the table trying to get it unfrozen lol).

So, you're telling me, if a ball is called frozen in 1hole, play gets defensive and the game goes on for 30 minutes and then both players must remember that the ball was ruled frozen still? I don't have time now to do the research but that doesn't sound right either.

 

[RiverCity]

So, you're telling me, if a ball is called frozen in 1hole, play gets defensive and the game goes on for 30 minutes and then both players must remember that the ball was ruled frozen still? I don't have time now to do the research but that doesn't sound right either.

I dont think there is anything in the written rules about this, but I do agree the importance of calling a ball frozen if it is pertinent to the next shot, whether it was called before or not.

 

[Bob Jewett]

So, you're telling me, if a ball is called frozen in 1hole, play gets defensive and the game goes on for 30 minutes and then both players must remember that the ball was ruled frozen still? I don't have time now to do the research but that doesn't sound right either.

I suppose the ball could be called and remain untouched for that long. I guess the shooter should be careful when finally shooting at it to go and look and declare it one way or the other. But that's something a shooter should do anyway.

In fact the WSR rules are silent on how long the "frozen" status lasts as are the rules on onepocket.org.

I think the only real problem comes up when the called-froze-a-long-time-ago ball is struck accidentally and that is the only rail contact.

I suppose this whole problem could be solved by giving rail credit for a frozen ball. I think there is no reason not to.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I suppose this whole problem could be solved by giving rail credit for a frozen ball. I think there is no reason not to.

I think it's worthy of consideration. The frozen rules are a bit excessive in most circumstances and confusing. It seems more important to novices taking advantage of other novices. Amongst higher ranks, I'd say it's called far less often.

Then again, I don't play 1hole.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I think it's worthy of consideration. The frozen rules are a bit excessive in most circumstances and confusing. It seems more important to novices taking advantage of other novices. Amongst higher ranks, I'd say it's called far less often.

Then again, I don't play 1hole.

I think all one pocket players call frozen balls as appropriate (and sometimes not as appropriate, depending on eyesight...).

Maybe the rule was important at 14.1 when playing a lot of little safeties, but that's taken care of by the stalemate rule now.

Another point is that you get a lot more frozen balls on worn cloth so it is defective equipment that is bringing the rule into play.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I think all one pocket players call frozen balls as appropriate (and sometimes not as appropriate, depending on eyesight...).

Maybe the rule was important at 14.1 when playing a lot of little safeties, but that's taken care of by the stalemate rule now.

Another point is that you get a lot more frozen balls on worn cloth so it is defective equipment that is bringing the rule into play.

The only game I can think of is 8ball. Tapping behind a ball on the rail comes up a lot. When it freezes, it's usually easy to adjust for but the novices could screw it up, usually because they're unfamiliar.

And yes, it's not common on new equipment.

 

[Spimp13]

So, you're telling me, if a ball is called frozen in 1hole, play gets defensive and the game goes on for 30 minutes and then both players must remember that the ball was ruled frozen still? I don't have time now to do the research but that doesn't sound right either.

You mentioned in your post below that you don't play one hole. All one hole games I've seen by great players have it so they call the ball frozen once unless a ball comes in contact or if they are also shooting a shot close to where the ball is. They do not say "6 is frozen" over and over and over and over every shot. Now there could be a written rule about the length it can be allowed frozen but I stand by my statement that. It would be silly to have to call it every shot over and over and over

 

[Bob Jewett]

You mentioned in your post below that you don't play one hole. All one hole games I've seen by great players have it so they call the ball frozen once unless a ball comes in contact or if they are also shooting a shot close to where the ball is. They do not say "6 is frozen" over and over and over and over every shot. Now there could be a written rule about the length it can be allowed frozen but I stand by my statement that. It would be silly to have to call it every shot over and over and over

I know of no official "expiration" time for a frozen call.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

You mentioned in your post below that you don't play one hole. All one hole games I've seen by great players have it so they call the ball frozen once unless a ball comes in contact or if they are also shooting a shot close to where the ball is. They do not say "6 is frozen" over and over and over and over every shot. Now there could be a written rule about the length it can be allowed frozen but I stand by my statement that. It would be silly to have to call it every shot over and over and over

Thanks for clearing that up.