calling "obvious" kicks/banks in general 8 ball rules

E

enzo

Banned
i have had this happen twice now with a decent little size of money riding on it in tournaments. in bar 8 ball you gotta call your pocket unless it's an obvious cut or strait shot. the way i see it, if you're kicking or banking you have to call it, here's why....

if you don't call a ball's pocket, you actually leave your options open-- and that is unfair. in other words, if you're hooked playing 8 ball, then kick your last stripe into the pocket it's very close to (some may say it was "obvious," some may not), well, you needed to call it--here's why..... you can't leave the option open to yourself if you are kicking a ball in at the end of an 8 ball game, if you do in fact kick it in and don't call it, depending on where the cueball stops (say it stops corner-hooked on everything) you could pass and say "i didn't call that." if whitey stops and you're strait in on the 8 you say "oh yeah, it was obvious." YOU CAN'T DO THAT AND PEOPLE NEED TO START REALIZING YOU CAN'T LEAVE YOUR OPTIONS OPEN. It's a mental error when you don't call a ball you're kicking at (or banking at) in tournaments, and people need to deal with the consequences when they forget to do it. i call people on this, and i do see where they are coming from to be honest, but they need to realize they can't keep their options open like that and it's a mental error.

rant over but people need to call stuff even thought these tournaments im referring to are a joke for the most part, but still people just dont understand that reason for having to call certain shots.
 
I would definitely call a bank or kick regardless of how obvious it is. This goes especially for kicks as you can kick a ball in the side or corner and it would look obvious.
 
"not obvious"

enzo said:
i have had this happen twice now with a decent little size of money riding on it in tournaments. in bar 8 ball you gotta call your pocket unless it's an obvious cut or strait shot. the way i see it, if you're kicking or banking you have to call it, here's why....

if you don't call a ball's pocket, you actually leave your options open-- and that is unfair. in other words, if you're hooked playing 8 ball, then kick your last stripe into the pocket it's very close to (some may say it was "obvious," some may not), well, you needed to call it--here's why..... you can't leave the option open to yourself if you are kicking a ball in at the end of an 8 ball game, if you do in fact kick it in and don't call it, depending on where the cueball stops (say it stops corner-hooked on everything) you could pass and say "i didn't call that." if whitey stops and you're strait in on the 8 you say "oh yeah, it was obvious." YOU CAN'T DO THAT AND PEOPLE NEED TO START REALIZING YOU CAN'T LEAVE YOUR OPTIONS OPEN. It's a mental error when you don't call a ball you're kicking at (or banking at) in tournaments, and people need to deal with the consequences when they forget to do it. i call people on this, and i do see where they are coming from to be honest, but they need to realize they can't keep their options open like that and it's a mental error.

rant over but people need to call stuff even thought these tournaments im referring to are a joke for the most part, but still people just dont understand that reason for having to call certain shots.
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Doesn't matter how easy it is to see, kicks, banks, and combinations must be called.

Hu
 
From the current WPA "General Rules":

1.6 Standard Call Shot:

"In games in which the shooter is required to call shots, the intended ball and pocket must be indicated for each shot if they are not obvious. Details of the shot, such as cushions struck or other balls contacted or pocketed are irrelevant. Only one ball may be called on each shot.

For a called shot to count, the referee must be satisfied that the intended shot was made, so if there is any chance of confusion, e.g. with bank, combination and similar shots, the shooter should indicate the ball and pocket. If the referee or opponent is unsure of the shot to be played, he may ask for a call.

In call shot games, the shooter may choose to call “safety” instead of a ball and pocket, and then play passes to the opponent at the end of the shot. Whether balls are being spotted after safeties depends on the rules of the particular game."

The old rule was IMO more specific in that it stated that banks and kicks were never to be considered 'obvious' and must be called. Under the new rules it becomes the player's responsibility to ask his opponent for the call.
 
I have the habit of calling every shot like out loud with the following standardized format:

X ball, left/right/cross corner/side[, combination Y into X]

then (and that's the real trick), I continue the sentence in my head and tell myself:

...and I play position on Z ball here

by looking at the spot or general area I want the cueball to end up at, to be in position to play Z.

Calling every shot prevents debates on how obvious a shot was, so your opponent never has a chance to argue. Also, saying the sentence marks the moment I stop thinking and start shooting. It serves as a sort of "metronome": it gives a rythm to my game during long runs. And by telling myself where I want the cueball to arrive, it seems to arrive there better. I don't know why...

So in short, I call the ball for me more than anybody else.
 
I believe ALL shots should be called regardless of banks, kicks, combos, or obvious. This should take out any arguments. Unfortunately I have seen it where your opponent still argues because he/she didn't hear it called.

I actually call all of my shots regardless. At least loud enough for spectators to hear it. On the 8-ball I will physically point at and almost touch the pocket as well to ensure my opponent can't argue the fact. Most of my opponents have integrity with the exception of a few.

Mind you the current BCAPL rules do state that all banks, kicks, and combinations MUST be called but obvious do not. Unfortunately this contradicts their 8-ball rules that state the game is a call shot game in the first paragraph.
 
gunzby said:
I would definitely call a bank or kick regardless of how obvious it is. This goes especially for kicks as you can kick a ball in the side or corner and it would look obvious.
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i guess the real point is how do you get an opponent to realize they have done something wrong when not calling a kick (even if it is a ball hanging). it is futile to try, but in a perfect world they would all understand an thusly acquiesce to your demands :)

as in this situation, both times i have turned out to be the wrotten bad guy somehow, even thought the shooter was the one making the mistake.

then there is the one where the guy kicks in half frustration, knocks the ball into the closest pocket and proceeds to win the game, when in reality he got frustrated and didn't call it, or even perhaps didn't actually want that shot.
 
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enzo said:
i guess the real point is how do you get an opponent to realize they have done something wrong when not calling a kick (even if it is a ball hanging). it is futile to try, but in a perfect world they would all understand an thusly acquiesce to your demands :)

as in this situation, both times i have turned out to be the wrotten bad guy somehow, even thought the shooter was the one making the mistake.

then there is the one where the guy kicks in half frustration, knocks the ball into the closest pocket and proceeds to win the game, when in reality he got frustrated and didn't call it, or even perhaps didn't actually want that shot.
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That's why you should ask for the call.
 
You always have to call banks, combos or kicks. If my opponent simply doesn't call the shots and doesn't get the message. I will, with no hesitation ask him every time what pocket he is going for when its questionable. I've had to do this once in my life and actually felt a little guilty about it afterwards, because once or twice he was already down aimming his shot.
 
Secaucus Fats said:
That's why you should ask for the call.
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a couple of people have said this, and believe me i totally understand the point, but i personally do not feel that is either right or my responsibility to clear that up. i mean one i dont want to distract him, just not my place, and if i ever got past that it is like well, i dont need to help out my opponent, do i?? if he dont call nothing i figure im liking it is the point because he's probably gonna lose no matter what happens, in a technical sense anyway.
 
enzo said:
a couple of people have said this, and believe me i totally understand the point, but i personally do not feel that is either right or my responsibility to clear that up. i mean one i dont want to distract him, just not my place, and if i ever got past that it is like well, i dont need to help out my opponent, do i?? if he dont call nothing i figure im liking it is the point because he's probably gonna lose no matter what happens, in a technical sense anyway.
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Enzo, believe me when I say I understand your point, but as far the current WPA rules are concerned, it doesn't matter. It's left to you, or the ref, to say what is, or isn't, obvious...and to then request the call from the shooter.

That is why I prefer the old "kicks and banks should never be considered obvious and therefore MUST BE CALLED" rule. But having said that..'the rules is the rules' becomes the new paradigm until such time as the WPA restores the rules to the 'must be called' standard (if ever).

I don't like to appear confrontational when I play, but I do want to make sure that my opponent is aware of, and understands the rules, because the rules are there for both of us.

I also understand that there are also different rule sets ranging from leagues to funky bar rules all the way to WPA rules ( which with minor mods to accomodate a coin table are the house rules at the local pub). It is up to you as a player to ascertain the specific rules governing any matches.

Truth is I say "F*ck 'em" cause it's part of the game. If I have the slightest doubt about a shot I WILL ask for the call if my opponent is not forthcoming as regards his intention on the shot.

It's not sharking, it's not disrespectful, it's not wrong...feed 'em beans!

Here are the pertinent WPA rules (BTW by default--these are the BCA Rules. BCAPL is a different animal.)

3.6 Shots Required to Be Called

On each shot except the break, shots must be called as explained in 1.6 Standard Call Shot. The eight ball may be called only after the shot on which the shooter’s group has been cleared from the table. The shooter may call “safety” in which case play passes to the opponent at the end of the shot and any object ball pocketed on the safety remains pocketed. (See 8.17 Safety Shot.)

1.6 Standard Call Shot:

In games in which the shooter is required to call shots, the intended ball and pocket must be indicated for each shot if they are not obvious. Details of the shot, such as cushions struck or other balls contacted or pocketed are irrelevant. Only one ball may be called on each shot.

For a called shot to count, the referee must be satisfied that the intended shot was made, so if there is any chance of confusion, e.g. with bank, combination and similar shots, the shooter should indicate the ball and pocket. If the referee or opponent is unsure of the shot to be played, he may ask for a call.

In call shot games, the shooter may choose to call “safety” instead of a ball and pocket, and then play passes to the opponent at the end of the shot. Whether balls are being spotted after safeties depends on the rules of the particular game.
 
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I liked the old rule which stated it more clearly. Something like " all banks, kicks and combinations are considered not obvious and must be called."

Very clear. that's how all of the people I play with play. If there is any possible doubt on any other shot, shot is called aloud.

It's really nice to play with people of integrity who never try to "game" the system or the rules. We play all fouls and people call fouls on themselves even if noone else sees it.
 
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