Can a coach "coach above their weight?"

TheOne

TheOne

www.MetroPool.club
Silver Member
I've wondered this for sometime. The players I often looked up to and asked for advice where "the best", of course this has evolved over time. I remember how excited I got as a very young kid when the best player in the club used to walk in, I wanted to play him, pick his brains and ultimately beat him.Then I found out who the best player in thw town was and I wanted to play and beat him too. Ultimately this passion led me to Efren but sadly he doesn't coach and is pretty damn hard to beat! :confused:

My question is: can a coach, coach above their weight, for example can an B player coach a Pro?

I'm sure to a certain extent this is true, afterall it happens in other sports, crap footballers for example have made excellent coach's, the same could be said for boxing. However personally I think there are limits to this and my personal preference has and always would be to learn off a champion.

What do you think?
 
Tiger Woods has a coach and I will gaurantee that he can't even come close to par. Yes a coachs ability to play has nothing to do with his coaching skills.
 
TheOne said:
I've wondered
,,, for example can an B player coach a Pro?
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on this very specific point,,,,,,,,NO

there is nothing a b player knows that a "pro" doesn't already know, and with an infinite number of variants to boot. this is because the b player has a finite vocabulary. if you know a quarter of the alphabet you won't be able to teach nor express yourself to a writer who knows the full alphabet. at it's most basic level, you are talking about two players who exist on different planes.
 
after posting, i started thinking about what i said, and certainly there are players who have more knowledge than their ability to actually implement.. i stand corrected on that point. but i think it is less "TEACHING SOMETHING NEW" to a pro and more reminding him. the pro, being the gifted performer, does creative things that the teacher could never fathom, and that's where i was coming from
 
> Bruin should know QUITE a bit about it. After all,John Wooden was said to be just an average basketball player in his absolute prime,basically a bench-warmer,but won what,11 NCAA Championships in a row as a coach? Tommy D.
 
I think a coach can definitely coach above his or her weight. This is particularly true when coaching mechanics.

A player at any speed can develop faults in setup or delivery. These faults often occur gradually and may not feel wrong to the player. Eventually, however, the player has to address them and it can be a monumental struggle to dig oneself out of such a morass.

An astute teacher, with a good eye, can identify a flaw in setup or delivery a lot easier than a player can feel it. He can then put the player back in proper form and tell him whether he's in the right position or not. Trying to judge form by feel is difficult at best, and often completely misleading. Thus, the coach becomes the "eyes" for the player.
 
Good points in Ted's post... I would like to add that a coach can also be a motivator and confidence builder. They can help a player work on the mental aspect of the game, which might just be the most important thing of all. I think Jerry Breiseth (pardon the spelling if it is incorrect) is a master of motivation and confidence building.

So it IS about knowledge, but is not limited to billiards ability or savy.
 
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The knowledge must be there first. Not necessarily the ability to execute as consistently but a coach has to be good enough to demonstrate what they are trying to get across verbally. This demonstration is what I see missing in these responses.

When I was teaching and coaching dancing at any point when I saw that "what is he talking about" look in my students eyes. I could always show them by demonstrating it.

The other important factor is a completely separate talent. The talent to be able to see the flaws. This talent is more rare than you might think. Only the very best teachers have it to much of a degree at all. Most teachers are making educated guesses at what is wrong. Telling you to try different things it could be. Nothing wrong with this mind you. They are giving possible solutions until you find the problem. Only the best teachers can watch you for a little while, use there ability to see what is wrong right away and say "OK, this is what we need to work on", being correct the first time.
 
good points raised. I think it probably needs breaking up into skill sets. For example I totally agree that Motivation and Mechanics can be improved by a coach, but this has little do with the players ability, hyperthetically these could be coached by somebody that can't run 3 balls!

What other areas do you think can be coached by a lower standard player?

PS
I'm just playing devils advocate here
 
MO4 said:
Tiger Woods has a coach and I will gaurantee that he can't even come close to par. Yes a coachs ability to play has nothing to do with his coaching skills.
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Another example: Charlie Lau, one of the greatest hitting coaches ever and a lifetime .255 hitter - "The Art of Hitting .300"
 
Pattern play and proper shot selection can be coached by a lower player... I am not able to pocket balls very well right now because my wife has all but retired me from pool. However, I know WAY more than I ever have because I read pool books and watch videos all the time (really non-stop). I can watch the pros play and select the correct shot more than 90% of the time... that is a big part of the game and more difficult to learn than many people think. However, I just don't have the practice time required to make the shots to consistently run out right now. I have a good track record for motivating and building confidence in other players in the past (usually lower players), and could certainly coach someone with more ability than me... right now. I would know the proper shots, but might not be able to demonstrate them.
 
TheOne said:
My question is: can a coach, coach above their weight, for example can an B player coach a Pro?
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I hope so, assuming your definition of B player is someone who has all/most the physical tools and could be an A player if he had oodles of time.

I think a good coach has to have a good basis of fundamentals, so IMO, he has to have attained a certain level of proficiency. But, his strength as a coach should be more focused on his ability to understand what he's looking at, assess the problems and determine solutions based on the player he is coaching.

OTOH, if the player's style is so esoteric, maybe there isn't a coach that could possibly be on the same wavelength.

Fred
 
MO4 said:
Tiger Woods has a coach and I will gaurantee that he can't even come close to par. Yes a coachs ability to play has nothing to do with his coaching skills.
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Well, ... his previous coach, Butch Harmon won a PGA event, though not a highly contested one at the time.

I don't know anything about his current coach, Hank Haney. I know he's not a touring pro caliber player, but I've assumed like in all sports that he had a certain level of skill. Are you saying you've seen him play, and he can't come close to par? Ever?

Fred
 
TheOne said:
good points raised. I think it probably needs breaking up into skill sets. For example I totally agree that Motivation and Mechanics can be improved by a coach, but this has little do with the players ability, hyperthetically these could be coached by somebody that can't run 3 balls!

What other areas do you think can be coached by a lower standard player?

PS
I'm just playing devils advocate here
Click to expand...


It isn't debatable whether somebody can coach above their level. Of course they can. The best teachers have countless students better than they are at the endeavor. However, many of the very best at something are bad teachers. because they have so much talent they do not always have to think about what they are doing and they also do things that are not easily transferred through teaching. Also, very often the best players have excellent concentration and nothing going through their heads during the action. It is tough for them to verbalize what they do because they do not verbalize it, rather they see it mentally. Sometimes they don't see it at all. Saw something fascinating in an interview with Tiger Woods. He says that many times he does not remember hitting a shot. Has NO memorry of striking the ball. He remembers preparing to hit and he remembers the result, but he can't always remember hitting it. Tiger knows enough to teach golf, but his skills are so much better as a player. He also goes to a golf pro for advice. At some point the pro can't help him specifically, who can teach Tiger to hit the 218 yard 6 iron from a bunker over water to make a birdie he needs in a clutch situation? Nobody, but the teachers helped him with the necessary things that got him to that point.

So as to "skill sets" I think the same applies. It depends on what the teacher knows and can convey. Tiger had coaching from a psychologist. Can the psychologist win a pro golf tournament? No. Does he have the same mental toughness as Tiger? No. Can he concentrate as well as Tiger? No. But he knows his field and can teach it and help somebody else with it. And that is really what it comes down to. A teacher will need a certain level of competence in the field. Most people who can teach a sport play it well, but not necessarily at the very top level. Once they have the knowledge they have to have the ability to communicate it. Most times the very best players don't have the best teaching ability.

So all areas can be coached by a lower standard player. But they have to know enough and be good enough to be good teachers. The answer is to find a good knowledgeable teacher who works well with you. That's all. The whole thing about not being able to learn from somebody you can beat is the biggest pile of BS.
 
better players sometimes learn from watching and other peoples obsevences. i remember showing a player the result of what happens during a kick shot close to the rail. saw him use it as a safety to win the u s open
 
Cornerman said:
Well, ... his previous coach, Butch Harmon won a PGA event, though not a highly contested one at the time.

I don't know anything about his current coach, Hank Haney. I know he's not a touring pro caliber player, but I've assumed like in all sports that he had a certain level of skill. Are you saying you've seen him play, and he can't come close to par? Ever?

Fred
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Great point Fred. I tend to look at sports such as basketball and football. One of the greatest men I have ever met was Jim Valvano. He was not a great basketball player, but one of the best coaches and motivators I have ever listened to. Look at Coach K, Phil Jackson (arguable - won a world championship w the Knicks), Don Shula, Bobby Knight, and others. Paul Brienza is an excellent player and one of the best teachers of the game, so is RandyG. Neither are in any danger of winning the US Open (sorry Randy - neither am I :D ) ... Its not so much about My playing ability as it is about trying to find ways to develop THEIR ability. When I coach players I am not shooting pool. Its not about me and my skills. It is about digging deep challenging the player to use every last bit of their talent to surpass their "expected" potential. Here is a profile from the World Golf Hall of Fame - about one of my heroes, Harvey Penick.

Harvey Penick - World Golf Hall of Fame Profile
 
billfishhead said:
better players sometimes learn from watching and other peoples obsevences. i remember showing a player the result of what happens during a kick shot close to the rail. saw him use it as a safety to win the u s open
Click to expand...

Half-ball hit with inside?

Curious, as I've been working on this safety a lot lately,

Jeff Livingston
 
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