Can a coach "coach above their weight?"
- Thread starter TheOne
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How about an example in the pool world.
I will say yes, because in some ways this is proof to me:
Bert Kinister coached Niels Feijen and has proved himself to be a world champion. At the same time Bert is a good player. Maybe he hasn't won a championship but he has beaten some top pros in competition. I doubt anyone would call Bert a B player, but he is coaching people beyond his own accomplishments. I don't know if this helps, but it shows that it does happen and it happens in pool. If Niels didn't get anything out of it, do you really think he would still see Bert even today? I doubt that he would with his schedule and traveling situations.
Time has to be one of the biggest factors in taking a good player and making them great. Not everyone can get that luxury.
However, with all that said, I would say that a non-champion player coaching someone to be a champion is not the norm. I truly believe there are very few that can do this, but Bert is proof that it can be done.
JMO
I will say yes, because in some ways this is proof to me:
Bert Kinister coached Niels Feijen and has proved himself to be a world champion. At the same time Bert is a good player. Maybe he hasn't won a championship but he has beaten some top pros in competition. I doubt anyone would call Bert a B player, but he is coaching people beyond his own accomplishments. I don't know if this helps, but it shows that it does happen and it happens in pool. If Niels didn't get anything out of it, do you really think he would still see Bert even today? I doubt that he would with his schedule and traveling situations.
Time has to be one of the biggest factors in taking a good player and making them great. Not everyone can get that luxury.
However, with all that said, I would say that a non-champion player coaching someone to be a champion is not the norm. I truly believe there are very few that can do this, but Bert is proof that it can be done.
JMO
Most definitely yes. My ex-husband's gymnastics coach couldn't even do a simple front roll, yet led their brand new team to several State championships. He could feel kinesthetically, where the body was at in any given moment and whether it was out of line or not. And I think good coaches can do that in pool, too.
I have a habit of raising up off the shot when anxious, yet I make sure to tell my students not to! I used to coach gymnastics and am able to verbalize and break down actions into its simplest forms and I believe that is a big part of being a good teacher.
Like someone said, time at the table can separate someone that knows the shots, from being able to consistently perform the shots. Pattern play and knowledge of where the ball should be at any given time should carry more weight than being able to perform the shots. The student will be able to hone their speed control and therefore their position play. Being able to coach and teach what NEEDS to be done does not always follow that the coach does it, as evidenced by other examples given in this thread.
My husband gives advanced lessons. He is totally a feel player. When he tells someone to 'float' a ball over here, he can't explain how to get it to float, but only show it. The player better be advanced enough to know how to float it already or be able to pick apart his actions and then duplicate them. For knowledge of the game, he is superior at showing it or giving examples, whereas my style of teaching is to base on solid fundamentals and build from there on every aspect.
I have a solid lesson plan with goals and he watches and gives examples and pointers when he sees a problem. Two very different teaching styles but both very effective in conveying to the student how to improve.
I have a habit of raising up off the shot when anxious, yet I make sure to tell my students not to! I used to coach gymnastics and am able to verbalize and break down actions into its simplest forms and I believe that is a big part of being a good teacher.
Like someone said, time at the table can separate someone that knows the shots, from being able to consistently perform the shots. Pattern play and knowledge of where the ball should be at any given time should carry more weight than being able to perform the shots. The student will be able to hone their speed control and therefore their position play. Being able to coach and teach what NEEDS to be done does not always follow that the coach does it, as evidenced by other examples given in this thread.
My husband gives advanced lessons. He is totally a feel player. When he tells someone to 'float' a ball over here, he can't explain how to get it to float, but only show it. The player better be advanced enough to know how to float it already or be able to pick apart his actions and then duplicate them. For knowledge of the game, he is superior at showing it or giving examples, whereas my style of teaching is to base on solid fundamentals and build from there on every aspect.
I have a solid lesson plan with goals and he watches and gives examples and pointers when he sees a problem. Two very different teaching styles but both very effective in conveying to the student how to improve.
percentages?
I think most seem to agree that coaches can out coach their weight in various areas, and I agree too. But let me throw this in, what about percentages?
The top snooker players in the world to a certain extent have become robots as the competition has become so fierce. All the top players "play the percentages", this means that they only EVER take on shots that they have an extreemly high shot percentage of, unless of course other options don't exisit or as just as risky.
A coach that has a lower ability is going to have different percentages(lower) to his pupil and would probably argue until they are blue in the face that a safety maybe the shot of choice when depending on the pupils talent the more aggressive shot maybe the correct choice?
I think most seem to agree that coaches can out coach their weight in various areas, and I agree too. But let me throw this in, what about percentages?
The top snooker players in the world to a certain extent have become robots as the competition has become so fierce. All the top players "play the percentages", this means that they only EVER take on shots that they have an extreemly high shot percentage of, unless of course other options don't exisit or as just as risky.
A coach that has a lower ability is going to have different percentages(lower) to his pupil and would probably argue until they are blue in the face that a safety maybe the shot of choice when depending on the pupils talent the more aggressive shot maybe the correct choice?
Donovan said:
Bert is a very good example for this question. Having been a Professional Golfer, I do know that GREAT TEACHERS aren't some of the great players. BUT, they can coach a GREAT PLAYER out of a slump or keep them on a plane.
I can teach POOL too, but I am limited to how well I can play. I am 63, can't SEE, but I'm still a threat in a Ring Game, League Play or Handicap Tournament. I hope to get my Instructors Certificate soon. I may not be overrun with students, but my goal is to succeed with the ones I do get to help.
TheOne said:I've wondered this for sometime. The players I often looked up to and asked for advice where "the best", of course this has evolved over time. I remember how excited I got as a very young kid when the best player in the club used to walk in, I wanted to play him, pick his brains and ultimately beat him.Then I found out who the best player in thw town was and I wanted to play and beat him too. Ultimately this passion led me to Efren but sadly he doesn't coach and is pretty damn hard to beat!
My question is: can a coach, coach above their weight, for example can an B player coach a Pro?
I'm sure to a certain extent this is true, afterall it happens in other sports, crap footballers for example have made excellent coach's, the same could be said for boxing. However personally I think there are limits to this and my personal preference has and always would be to learn off a champion.
What do you think?
Yes. Hal Mix coached Nick Varner for years and could not play himself.
TheOne said:
It's the coaches job to know the player's ability and thus give advice accordingly, at least that's what good coaches do. I doubt very seriously that any good coach would give advice based on his percentages on the shot instead of the players percentages.
Improvement can come from the advice of others for many areas that can help your game.
You could learn things about the mental approach from a meditation guru, training management from a time-management consultant, power shots from a ball banger or even learn what not to do or how not to thing by recognizing a small error in yourself through the advice of an idiot.
But generally, what will make a great player is mostly up to the player. For them to assimilate the good and the bad.
I have had several coaches in Track and Field in the past, and basically I was uncoachable. I would ask too many questions, find contradictions in their advice, so I just learned to coach myself pretty much and occassionally get some observation from coaches or fellow athletes, or watch videos of myself.
In summary, use as many resources as available to learn. But aim to formulate your own strategy of development so it is most self-governed.
There are so many shots it the game that could be practiced and improved, that don't have an easy solution. Working on all these shots systematically and developing a feel for them will gradually iron out most the kinks in your game.
You may see a great player make a shot that you thought was very hard. You could ask him and he might give you a small insight, but go and practice that shot a thousand times and then you really begin to learn that shot, and can add it to your arsenal.
You could learn things about the mental approach from a meditation guru, training management from a time-management consultant, power shots from a ball banger or even learn what not to do or how not to thing by recognizing a small error in yourself through the advice of an idiot.
But generally, what will make a great player is mostly up to the player. For them to assimilate the good and the bad.
I have had several coaches in Track and Field in the past, and basically I was uncoachable. I would ask too many questions, find contradictions in their advice, so I just learned to coach myself pretty much and occassionally get some observation from coaches or fellow athletes, or watch videos of myself.
In summary, use as many resources as available to learn. But aim to formulate your own strategy of development so it is most self-governed.
There are so many shots it the game that could be practiced and improved, that don't have an easy solution. Working on all these shots systematically and developing a feel for them will gradually iron out most the kinks in your game.
You may see a great player make a shot that you thought was very hard. You could ask him and he might give you a small insight, but go and practice that shot a thousand times and then you really begin to learn that shot, and can add it to your arsenal.
TheOne said:I've wondered this for sometime. The players I often looked up to and asked for advice where "the best", of course this has evolved over time. I remember how excited I got as a very young kid when the best player in the club used to walk in, I wanted to play him, pick his brains and ultimately beat him.Then I found out who the best player in thw town was and I wanted to play and beat him too. Ultimately this passion led me to Efren but sadly he doesn't coach and is pretty damn hard to beat!
My question is: can a coach, coach above their weight, for example can an B player coach a Pro?
I'm sure to a certain extent this is true, afterall it happens in other sports, crap footballers for example have made excellent coach's, the same could be said for boxing. However personally I think there are limits to this and my personal preference has and always would be to learn off a champion.
What do you think?
I think what it really boils down to is personal trust and "ego"...If you truely trust the person that is doing the coaching, you will probably learn from them.
Ego plays a role in this...An "A" player may have to big and ego and will not even listen to what a "B" player has to say...(bottom line is they don't trust them)
It can change...You may start out with a trust in a certain player just becuase he is labled an "A" player, only to find out that this person even though real good,has no clue as to why he/she is good and/or will not be able to explain anything about the game.....or very little...
TheOne said:
What out even reading the other responses ...
Yes, absolutely. Just like any sport, coaching is related to understanding not the ability to execute. Almost all the greats in all the sports have a coach, and they make them better at what they do. Pool is no different. A "B" player coaching a Pro is a stretch, but it might happen. Red Auerbach couldn't play basketball with the old Celtics, but he made them champions.
Niels Fiejen runs 150 and out...
I had to say congrats to Niels...this is his first 150. They normally play to 125 there. I just wanted to share this from Niels' blog page:
150 and out in the Bundesliga!!!!
Hey there,
Left this morning for Germany to play the bundesliga for Oberhausen against the leader of the ranking Fulda. They came with Reimering, Poguntke, Weigoni and one more. I was drawn against Poguntke for the 14.1. Was funny cause at the last eurotour he asked me if we would play against eachother this day and his wish came true
He broke the balls and I ran a sweeeeeeeet 150 and out!!!! Never done it before because hardly play straight the rest of the year and we usually play to 125 except bundesliga! Funny cause the entire week I was struggeling to get a 100 and only made one yesterday. But practice pays off and the reward was today.
I had to say congrats to Niels...this is his first 150. They normally play to 125 there. I just wanted to share this from Niels' blog page:
150 and out in the Bundesliga!!!!
Hey there,
Left this morning for Germany to play the bundesliga for Oberhausen against the leader of the ranking Fulda. They came with Reimering, Poguntke, Weigoni and one more. I was drawn against Poguntke for the 14.1. Was funny cause at the last eurotour he asked me if we would play against eachother this day and his wish came true
He broke the balls and I ran a sweeeeeeeet 150 and out!!!! Never done it before because hardly play straight the rest of the year and we usually play to 125 except bundesliga! Funny cause the entire week I was struggeling to get a 100 and only made one yesterday. But practice pays off and the reward was today.
If I need advice of "how should I play this shot?" I would not ask someone who cannot run out a wide open table most of the times.
If I need to know "what is a good stroke?" I would not ask someone who has never experienced it himself.
If I need to know " how should I aim?" I would not ask a person who cannot pot.
Is a B player someone who cannot run out a wide open table? If it is, how can he help me with pattern play, safety play, and even machanic?
I agree may be he can be a great motivator and in a sense, that may be what a professional player needs. For an amateur like myself, I need someone better to teach me aspects of the game that I do not know.
I have received some very good advice from some players on the tournament trails. I have to say I think a lot of them can play and also can teach.
Richard
If I need to know "what is a good stroke?" I would not ask someone who has never experienced it himself.
If I need to know " how should I aim?" I would not ask a person who cannot pot.
Is a B player someone who cannot run out a wide open table? If it is, how can he help me with pattern play, safety play, and even machanic?
I agree may be he can be a great motivator and in a sense, that may be what a professional player needs. For an amateur like myself, I need someone better to teach me aspects of the game that I do not know.
I have received some very good advice from some players on the tournament trails. I have to say I think a lot of them can play and also can teach.
Richard
> Bruin,I looked up some stuff on him,and stand corrected. However,the ESPN special I saw that covered him portrayed him as less of a player than the actual stats say,as if the National Championship he won as a player was not directly because he played. Not to say that he COULDN'T play,even a benchwarmer in the NCAA is still in all likelyhood a great player. Tiger Woods having a coach is a little different than it would be in pool,in this respect. What Butch and Hank do for him is serve as a "swing" coach. Their entire purpose is to make sure he has the most accurate,flowing,and completely repeatable swinging motion possible,as opposed to actually coaching him through a shot or round. He doesn't solicit advice from them on shot selection,or strategy,they just make sure he is hitting the balls correctly physically,so he can apply his other talents such as course management and mental toughness without wondering if he'll miss this shot because he incorrectly applied the swing. He KNOWS he'll hit it,because they did their job. You use your arms as a "machine" to hit golf or pool balls with. The best machines usually have the fewest parts,for repeatability,even under pressure. The difference between Butch and a pool instructor that preaches mechanics above all,Bert Kinister for example,is that Bert INSTALLS his machine,and Butch not only installed his but MAINTAINS it. Can you imagine what it would cost for Neils Feijen to have Bert meet him at every tournament and for practice sessions? Tommy D.
nipponbilliards said:
I find I have to disagree with you to some extent. A person can know what to do, but not be able to execute. Maybe their hand-eye coordination is a little less than yours, maybe their fine muscle fibers are not as sensitive as yours and they don't have a "shooters touch", but they know what to do, they know how to recognize a proper pattern. You can learn from somebody like that, they can see your mistakes even if they have more than you.
That is not to say a coach should be a lesser player, just that it can be.
Tommy-D said:
This is a good post, my own feeling is that a pool coach who is of a lower playing ability could still make an excellent coach at:
Mechanics
Mental Approach and confidence
Safety
Kicks
Banks
jumps
Mainly the technical parts of the game. I think cue ball control and pocketing skills are best learnt from putting in the work and hours on the table. I still have my doubts whether they can fully coach certain shot selections, but very difficult to coach that extra magic that seperates a player from the rest.
JMO
CaptainJR said:
I'll add a little to this. I think I need to clarify what I meant in the first sentence." The knowledge must be there first." If a B player is what I'm thinking a B player is, he can't coach a A+ player unless he was a better player previously. The knowledge just isn't there. What are we talking about here. A paid lesson or a friend helping another friend. We can go to the other end of the spectrum to show this. Lets take a APA 2 helping an APA 4. Unless the APA 2 was a 4 or a 5 in time past, they just don't have the knowledge to do it. Let's reverse that. How about an APA 4 helping an APA 2. Do you think that is a good thing? I guess it might be better than nothing but the 2 could be learning some bad habits.
I am talking mechanics and game management here. A psychiatrist that doesn't know which end of the cue to hold can help you with your mental game.
What I'm saying is as I said above. "The knowledge must be there". If you ask me, a B player can't coach an A+ player. Again, unless they were a better player previously. I would imagine there are exceptions to this but the very very large majority of B players don't have it. Not only the ability to demonstrate it, but also the verbal talent to put it in words that the learner can understand. Can a B player watching, notice a better plan than a Pro uses in a certain situation? Sure he could. Can he tell him how and why he could have missed the plan and tell him how to avoid missing the better plan next time? Probably not.