Can someone explain?
- Thread starter Grady
- Start date
This article from www.worldpoolchampionship.com might help clear some issues - http://www.worldpoolchampionship.com/article_detail.asp?article_id=2019 .
manlyshot said:Karambolista, great website! I am unable to register and read the article. Would it be possible for you to bring the "article_id=2019" over here? Thanks.
ManlyShot
Here 'tis. My apologies to Luke and Matchroom, here's the article by Jerry Forsyth.
Manlyshot, you really should register there. There's a lot of great info and an interesting forum with folks from everywhere from Russia to the Phils to Sweden.
"The contingent from the United States for this year’s WPC is another strong one.
As usual, the US fans have shown their love of controversy by making a bit of a stink about the UPA having to use it’s #31 ranked player to fill a fourteen-man roster, but that is all smoke without substance. Take a look at who else populates the top echelons of the UPA.
Five of the top ten players are non-US citizens, not qualified to represent the US in world competition. These men (Jose Parica, Mika Immonen, Santos Smabajon, Ralf Souquet and Efren Reyes) are eliminated from consideration automatically.
The only top ten player on the UPA list that is staying home is Tony Robles. You can understand why some sticks might not choose to make the trip.
A journey to Taiwan is expensive and means a ten-day absence from one’s family and responsibilities. But the rest of our top guys (Johnny Archer, Charlie Williams, Rodney Morris and Max Eberle) are all taking the long flight. Plus, Earl Strickland gets the nod due to his past champion status.
In the next group of ten, those holding the UPA rank of 11-20, there are some notable absences. Ron Wiseman, Jimmy Wetch, and Nick Varner will all be missed.
These three could have lent a lot of strength to the American effort. Nick Varner had to have an operation to remove blood clots earlier this year, though, so we were prepared for him to stay home.
UPA #14 is Luc Salvas from Canada, so his name has to be tossed out. Another foreigner, Tony Crosby from the UK, is on the list at #19 but he gets to make the trip under the American flag anyway because he had the good sense to marry an American girl and thus gain his citizenship. Some might consider that a kiss with no tongue in it, but it gets him the trip to Taiwan.
The two Americans left in the second twenty are nice dark-horse bets. Mike Davis will surprise a lot of opponents. Danny Harriman has been really coming on the last two years and can beat anyone when his mind and arm are in sync.
So seven of the American fourteen are garnered from the top twenty players. The final seven are a real mix of skills. Shawn Putnam, John Schmidt, and Jeremy Jones have the talent that makes one wonder why their rankings are not higher.
These guys have all won tough tournaments and are very good bets to make it into the championship rounds. Jeremy Jones has the experience and poise to win.
The rest of field USA may cause Matchroom to wonder whether the US really needs fourteen spots. It is said that Matchroom is considering changing the criteria for entry into something more closely resembling the systems used in golf.
That would be a very good thing. Corey Harper is a player unknown to the world stage. Steve Lillis and Frank Alvarez may not be able to find the stage. Great guys, but their passions in life lie outside the world of winning at pool.
This year at the WPC we are due for an upset. If you want to bet on the yanks and throw out the obvious favorites of Archer and Strickland you may get the most bang for your buck out of Charlie Williams. We know how good Charlie is, but the bookies of the world may not.
Cover all the bases with a few bucks on Max Eberle and Rodney Morris, though the odds on Morris may be tainted by his recent win in Reno. Then play the long shots and maybe book a big winner. Put a few dollars down on Mike Davis and Danny Harriman.
Then pray that some other guy’s horses have to take out Chao, Reyes, Immonen, Souquet, Parica and…
Well, maybe wagering funds on this thing isn’t such a great idea. Enjoy the show
manlyshot said:
Manlyshot, I guess I shouold have clarified. I meant in the WPC.
Nonetheless, I'm interested in your claim that Kid Delicious was improperly overlooked as a BCA Open participant. To validate your cliam, though, you'll have to indicate a player that was invited based on a lower UPA ranking than Danny's and would also need to establish that such player did not get a sponsor's wild card into the event.
One thing we agreee on is that the selection methodolgies in place need improvement, but if you wish to contend that the UPA rankings were not applied correctly in selection of either the BCA Open or WPC, you will have to explain it.
If you can't, then your problem is only with the methodology, and not with it's objective application. If that is the case, we're on the same page.
manlyshot said:
Great post, Manlyshot, and thanks for the education. As you said, the key here is to have a pre-announced field selection methodology. This is one sense in which women's pool is far more evolved than men's. WPBA competitors and those who hope to be know exactly what it will take to get into fields.
O
onepocketchump
Guest
pooljunkie0082 said:
What? This is ridiculous. Scott Taylor owns Fury Cues and they have absolutely NO INFLUENCE on who gets invited to any tournament. No relative of Frank Alvarez is involved in Fury in any way.
Even before the UPA existed relatively unknown players were sent overseas to the WC to fill out spots. I don't agree with the method of just sending anybody to fill spots but what can I do about it?
I think the BCA should have four spots that are fully paid trips to the WC and the players should have to qualify for them. That's how it should work. Then every player that qualified would go. Maybe the number one spot on the pro rankings at a certain time should get an automatic paid spot but that's it.
John
just the facts ma'am
as always I bugged upa rep mr. alvarez today. it served as a good excuse to chat with him a little, hehe.
here is how the invites work.
1. all upa invites are based on upa ranking order.
2. different promoters use different rules. see examples below.
3. calender rankings are always used for invites, unless the calendar ranking has less than five events factored in, then seeding rankings are used till the calendar ranking kicks in. calendar rankings start in janaury and end in january (pro tour championships).
4. The seeding ranking is always the last ten upa sactioned event. in other words, when the next upa event is finished, the 10th event from the past is dropped off. the seeding ranking is generally only used for seeding in upa event unless there are not 5 calendar events for the year factored in. then the seeding ranking is used for invites. so in other words, if the upa is asked for any invites from now until oct, it will use the seeding ranking to offer the invites. Once the Atlanta Open happens (5th event this year) the calendar rankings will be used for invites fromthat point on for 2004. the Mosconi Cup invites will be offered after the Atlanta Open's points are factored in.
The BCA open was based on 32 top u.s. players on upa calendar rankings. however the BCA requested the current calendar list back in early Dec '03 as they planned well ahead for the event. so obviously the calendar ranking was different come time for the actual event in may '04. also, the bca did NOT offer the next u.s. player on the list the invite if it was denied by any of the top 32. this is of course different from the world championships. alvarez did point out that world invites were going to be changed in 2005 for the better of both the upa and the top caliber player invited.
in the case of the BCA open. Danny B., who is a good friend of mr. alvarez, was not able to be contacted by upa or bca in order to recieve invite, as sometimes pool players are not easily reached. mr. alvarez pointed out that sometimes players change contact info without informing anyone, thus nothing could be done. Danny B's spot was not offered to the next person in line, because that was the policy of the BCA. It then went to wild cards and waiting lists.
i think the important thing here is to understand that there is a very real, and logical system in place. the UPA basicaly gives the promoter what the promoter asks for, yet always uses the same system.
it seems to me, that the confusion is on our parts, not on the promoter's part or the upa.
mr. alvarez says that the upa will do better to inform the general public in the near future. as they are getting ready to announe a new site that is much better. he apoligized for the confusion. as always mr. alvarez offered to answer any questions and gave contact info for those that wish to veriy 602.218.6670
Thanks for the pic Gremlin.
ps. mr. alvarez did tell me also that he did speak with Mike Z. about sactioning. frank and mike had very cordial conversation and both agreed that under the cirumstances nothing could be done at this point in time (which I guess was april or so). again mr. alvarez pointed out that he is not a board member and never has been, and has no desire to be one.
also mr. alvarez pointed out that the capitol city classic was never put on their tour schedule. he pointed out that the president, robert lipson, was very serious about not conflicting events this year and in fact denied the sactioning of at least two events this year in order have a smooth transition as the new president.
as always I bugged upa rep mr. alvarez today. it served as a good excuse to chat with him a little, hehe.
here is how the invites work.
1. all upa invites are based on upa ranking order.
2. different promoters use different rules. see examples below.
3. calender rankings are always used for invites, unless the calendar ranking has less than five events factored in, then seeding rankings are used till the calendar ranking kicks in. calendar rankings start in janaury and end in january (pro tour championships).
4. The seeding ranking is always the last ten upa sactioned event. in other words, when the next upa event is finished, the 10th event from the past is dropped off. the seeding ranking is generally only used for seeding in upa event unless there are not 5 calendar events for the year factored in. then the seeding ranking is used for invites. so in other words, if the upa is asked for any invites from now until oct, it will use the seeding ranking to offer the invites. Once the Atlanta Open happens (5th event this year) the calendar rankings will be used for invites fromthat point on for 2004. the Mosconi Cup invites will be offered after the Atlanta Open's points are factored in.
The BCA open was based on 32 top u.s. players on upa calendar rankings. however the BCA requested the current calendar list back in early Dec '03 as they planned well ahead for the event. so obviously the calendar ranking was different come time for the actual event in may '04. also, the bca did NOT offer the next u.s. player on the list the invite if it was denied by any of the top 32. this is of course different from the world championships. alvarez did point out that world invites were going to be changed in 2005 for the better of both the upa and the top caliber player invited.
in the case of the BCA open. Danny B., who is a good friend of mr. alvarez, was not able to be contacted by upa or bca in order to recieve invite, as sometimes pool players are not easily reached. mr. alvarez pointed out that sometimes players change contact info without informing anyone, thus nothing could be done. Danny B's spot was not offered to the next person in line, because that was the policy of the BCA. It then went to wild cards and waiting lists.
i think the important thing here is to understand that there is a very real, and logical system in place. the UPA basicaly gives the promoter what the promoter asks for, yet always uses the same system.
it seems to me, that the confusion is on our parts, not on the promoter's part or the upa.
mr. alvarez says that the upa will do better to inform the general public in the near future. as they are getting ready to announe a new site that is much better. he apoligized for the confusion. as always mr. alvarez offered to answer any questions and gave contact info for those that wish to veriy 602.218.6670
Thanks for the pic Gremlin.
ps. mr. alvarez did tell me also that he did speak with Mike Z. about sactioning. frank and mike had very cordial conversation and both agreed that under the cirumstances nothing could be done at this point in time (which I guess was april or so). again mr. alvarez pointed out that he is not a board member and never has been, and has no desire to be one.
also mr. alvarez pointed out that the capitol city classic was never put on their tour schedule. he pointed out that the president, robert lipson, was very serious about not conflicting events this year and in fact denied the sactioning of at least two events this year in order have a smooth transition as the new president.
Gremlin said:
Grem, as you know there is really not a lot of money in tournament play. They know they can drive to a hall for a 2K added and most like make a good bit of money in the non-tournament gambling. Hey, they gotta eat too
('specially Buddy Hall )Gremlin said:The people you refer to as better players were invited but didn't accept. Reason's: To cheap to go, sponsors to cheap to send, health reasons, scared to fly, family matters ECT, ECT.
With all due respect, Gremlin, how do you know this to be a fact?
Of course, maybe the nice friendly "girl who works in a law office" can give Frank Alvarez yet another call and straighten this whole mess out for us.
Gremlin said:The truth of the matter is some pro pool players would rather drive 1000 miles for a $2,000.00 added than fly 10,000 miles to play in the so called world champoinship."
Again, Gremlin, with all due respect, how do you know this to be a fact?
Gremlin said:
It may seem like dribble to you, Gremlin, but there are others who may feel differently about the current state of affairs with the UPA.
Personally, I am having a good time reading Cuetone's remarkably detailed posts. Unfortunately, some of the "facts" contained therein are not the truth.
I have always followed your posts, Gremlin, about a variety of topics, and even though some may not be of interest to me, I would never consider reading a post written by you as a waste of my time.
ManlyShot
Gremlin said:sjm,
Charlie Williams has nothing to with it so how could he pull a fast one? Frank Alvarez is going because he accepted and is going. The people you refer to as better players were invited but didn't accept. Reason's: To cheap to go, sponsors to cheap to send, health reasons, scared to fly, family matters ECT,
ECT.
The truth of the matter is some pro pool players would rather drive 1000 miles for a $2,000.00 added than fly 10,000 miles to play in the so called world champoinship.
Mike Davis, Danny Basavich, Charlie Williams, Johnny Archer, Earl, Double J, Max, Danny Herriman and Rodney Morris! Who the hell else is there? Who did you old timers want? There are more Americans than any other country I think? All this UPA page after page dribble is a waste of my time.
Gremlin
Gremlin, though I took note of the fact that others had suggested as much, I am not among those that feel Charlie pulled a fast one. I agree that all Americans with a chance to win were invited to the WPC. In my opinion, the only American that would have had a chance to win who isn't going is Tony Robles. Despite the fact that he's playing the best pool of his life right now, I heard he declined.
You make a great point, though. Why is it that some that will dedicate a weekend to a $2,000 added event being played nowhere near where they live and pass up on a chance to play in the World Championship? This doesn't make us appear deserving of all the invites we get.
Gremlin said:ManlyShot, Your a good forum friend! Your not confused!!!
Gremlin, what about the prospective UPA members who signed up with the UPA believing it to be a men's organization to promote a real tour? You shouldn't generalize. After all, these "touring pros" who did pay their dues must not be so cheap, and some of them do have aspirations relating to attending high-profile tournaments.
Gremlin said:
Danny Basavich was a "late entry" into the race, I guess you could say. He was initially looked over for WPC participation. He was definitely not contacted by the UPA for his "invite" to the BCA Open because of a communication problem. I have spoken with Danny, but do not desire to quote his words in this public forum.
As far as Charlie, I agree with you that he is a world-class player. He just wears too many UPA hats, and he should pick just one and wear it proudly. Being named Brunswick Representatives, in the same shoes worn by Mike Sigel, is an honor.
Gremlin said:
No offense taken, Gremlin, but the UPA is only a fact of life to those who are professional pool players, a very small minority in the mix. Some professional pool players feel slighted by the lack of communication.
Gremlin said:
Let me put it to you this way, Gremlin. When I see you at the next event, and I will, I am going to make it a point to introduce myself. I am not going to print personal conversations I have shared with involved parties. I would never call Frank Alvarez a liar, but the Joss saga isn't quite correct.
The original intent of this thread, "Can Someone Explain?," put it in a nutshell, and someone should have explained it in the first place, so that this thread would never have been initiated.
ManlyShot
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manlyshot said:
Not what I wrote. Didn't say that there are those passing up WPC to play in a small purse event the same weekend. Simply asserted that some of those who have declined an invite have been known to invest a weekend in low purse events nowhere near home.
Gremlin said:
Suit yourself, Gremlin. I never stated anybody was passed over so Frank and Steve got the invites to the WPC. What I did state was that the "invitation" and "selection" process is not clear, resulting in misconceptions and misunderstandings among UPA players.
gremlin said:It may very well be the WPC TD screens out the roadie riff raff to insure there is no disruption in the tournament play?
What UPA member in particular are you referring as "roadie riff raff," Gremlin? I would like to have this clarified before I respond in kind.
Gremlin said:
You, unfortunately, stereotype a little too much to my liking, Gremlin. I've never called you out on it in the past, as others have.
The so-called "hearsay" is only a phone call away. Call Mike Zuglan or the TD of the Capital City Classic and find out for yourself.
Hope you enjoy the holiday weekend!
ManlyShot
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The shadow knows
Hey Manly, he probably be talkin' bout Keith Mc.
Let me check: YO EARTHQUAKE, come here so I kin ax ya sumthin - and bring us a couple of Buds whilest ya's at it.
So tell me Keith, he be talkin' bout you. What's that, you didn't get no invite - why? Oh, cause you didn't have no coat and tie ta get in the country club. Damn dude, we coulda held a benefit or somethin' fer ya. Oh well, at least now we know why. Take it easy and oh, leave my hugger OK.
Well Manly, now we know.
Later , Pel
manlyshot said:
Hey Manly, he probably be talkin' bout Keith Mc.
Let me check: YO EARTHQUAKE, come here so I kin ax ya sumthin - and bring us a couple of Buds whilest ya's at it.
So tell me Keith, he be talkin' bout you. What's that, you didn't get no invite - why? Oh, cause you didn't have no coat and tie ta get in the country club. Damn dude, we coulda held a benefit or somethin' fer ya. Oh well, at least now we know why. Take it easy and oh, leave my hugger OK.
Well Manly, now we know.
Later
, PelPelican said:
Pelican, I am not too sure who Gremlin is referring to as "roadie riff raff," but if a UPA member is referred to as a "roadie riff raff," it calls into question why the UPA would accept one of these so-called characters into its membership if they deem any prospective applicant to be "roadie riff raff." Is there a clause in the UPA contract that bans a "roadie riff raff"? How do you define this term?
More to the point, Grady Mathews, the originator of this thread, the gentleman who is promoting a tournament on the Gulf Coast, asked the question: Can someone explain?
He used to be a road player, according to the book that he wrote, and as I understand it, he gives lessons and does a variety of things to this day. Why, I believe he gave you lessons, Pelican, if I'm not mistaken. Certainly, Gremlin meant no inference to road players as being "riff raff," or did he?
ManlyShot
Ms Cuteone
i'm just a girl....[/QUOTE]
And a well informed 1 at that. I apologize for getting my info wrong and upsetting you like i apparently did. but please understand, i was not degrading or putting Mr Alvarez down in any manner. So please accept my apology and i am staying out of this altogether. and PS... i don't eat tv dinners....................................................mike
i'm just a girl....[/QUOTE]
And a well informed 1 at that. I apologize for getting my info wrong and upsetting you like i apparently did. but please understand, i was not degrading or putting Mr Alvarez down in any manner. So please accept my apology and i am staying out of this altogether. and PS... i don't eat tv dinners....................................................mike