Can you transfer side spin to an OB?

Yes you can. It's called throwing the ball.

A simple shot to set up would be to freeze the CB and OB together at the 1/1 diamonds on the right side and have them aimed straight to the first diamond on the other end of the table. Using either a downward stroke or you can use a center straight stroke put extreme left english on the CB and watch it hit the corner pocket because of transferred spin.

You can also make quite a few two rail banks using transferred side spin.
 
I am saying that you cannot transfer enough spin to create continuing persistent side spin on an Object Ball that will linger as SIDE spin for any significant distance.
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Probably not, on a 20 foot table.
 
JB Cases said:
Looking at the shot I posted with the two balls frozen, how can you hit the top ball and make it go to the rail and bounce back below the bottom ball if you aren't doing it with spin transfer? If you were to cut the object ball then the bottom frozen ball would move and you will NEVER get the object ball to pass below it.

I will GIVE you $50 if you can post a video of you setting the cueball up at any angle other than dead straight in line with the object ball and you make the object ball pass below the bottom ball WITHOUT moving the bottom ball
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I am curious why no one will try another video for shits and giggles. Can you post a video of this shot you posted! Use shafts on each side on the OB and CB as guides making sure CB hits full and only transfer is causing the ball to bank...


ANY ONE TO END THIS THREAD POST A VIDEO. MY USB PORT IS DEAD OR I WOULD POST....


Can anyone post the example shot they gave using shafts or some other guide insuring full ball contact and the transfer banking the ball?
 
dr_dave said:
Thank you for making this clear. I don't think this was totally clear earlier.

This is not correct. The many examples and videos here prove otherwise.

Regards,
Dave

PS: I don't think I can add anything else to this discussion, so I won't. I hope you don't take this the wrong way.
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I didn't read through your page, I did watch the videos. How was the CB being hit and over what distance. I also like to know how far the OB travelled with the transfer spin before it all changed to forward roll.
 
softshot said:
what is depressing..is you (and many others) are not even attempting to grasp what I am trying to communicate. you are just trying to win an argument.

Winning the argument doesn't make you right.
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Why do you assume that others aren't trying to understand your position?

There are a lot of assumptions about what physically happens when pool balls collide and bounce off rails that are based on personal experience. Some of those assumptions have been proven to be right and others have been proven to be wrong over the years by many very bright people using high speed video equipment, robots, engineering students, and fancy math like the kind that helps people build rockets.

These people don't go through all this effort "just to win an argument". They want to understand what is really happening just as much as you do, maybe even more since they are willing to spend so much time and effort on recording, analyzing, collaborating, verifying, and publishing their tests and conclusions.

Mike Page is one of these folks. Whenever he publishes something I can't wait to try it out. I have the vain hope that someday I will be able to find a flaw in his logic and video demonstrations. :-) Well I have to hope for something since I haven't beaten him yet on the pool table.

Seriously though, the end result of all this discussion IS a better understanding of what happens. When you or the other posts a conclusion on the forum, i.e. "it's impossible to transfer side spin to the object ball" then it is your responsibility to simply present your evidence and let your peers debate it. You can continue to hold the opposing view despite evidence to the contrary. Anything the we think happens is all theory anyway. The truth might be that each ball has tiny billiard goblins in who react differently each time the ball is struck. We can only experiment, observe, analyze the results and come to a conclusion that is our best guess as to what is happening. This isn't about winning or losing it is just about learning.
 
I can't post video of why I have a hard time believing transfer occurs because of computer issues. That is why I am asking someone to try a shot post what happened or the video. Can you try the shot you posted with the touching balls using rail system for a full ball hit?

My opinion can change if someone shows me transfer doing the same shot as I.
 
Can anyone post the example shot they gave using shafts or some other guide insuring full ball contact and the transfer banking the ball?
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You don't need all that stuff. All you need is to ensure the OB doesn't hit the rail at an angle and a little cut angle on the shot in the wrong direction for collision-induced spin, like this:

CueTable Help



Show you're an open-minded truthseeker and try it.

pj
chgo
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
You don't need all that stuff. All you need is to ensuring the OB doesn't hit the rail at an angle and a little cut angle on the shot in the wrong direction for collision-induced spin, like this:

CueTable Help



Show you're an open-minded truthseeker and try it.

pj
chgo
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I can make the shot... what do you want be to try? Not sure if I can do it this high though, going to go try
 
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softshot said:
I didn't say that at all

You can use side spin to THROW the OB on an angular course to the rail

and whatever spin you can transfer to the OB becomes follow almost instantly under nearly all conditions...

I think that Throw is greatly underestimated and not nearly as well understood as many would lead you to believe...


but regardless.. I'm done trying to explain my point..the people who get it... get it..
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That's kind of like religion, the preacher says those who believe "get it" and those who don't believe don't "get it".

Everyone knows that that you can throw a ball into an approach angle other than dead straight with side spin.

That wasn't my question. You said that you can change the angle of REFLECTION using JUST draw or follow. The only time YOU as the SHOOTER USE draw or follow or side is when you strike the cueball. The amount of rotation that the object ball then has which is not linear at a 90 degree angle to the surface is then dependent on many factors.

My contention is that the shooter can not make the object ball rebound from the rail at any angle other than 100% straight back IF the cueball and object ball were struck in the absolute center.

AND furthermore, if in the same setup the cueball is struck with sidespin then it will cause the object ball to rebound from the rail at an angle opposite to the sidespin applied to the cueball.

And yes, the object ball can be thrown off the center line with sidespin BUT still the cueball can be made to rebound at a greater angle out than the angle in.

Nothing that hasn't been said already. I know that Grady Matthews showed me how to twist these banks in and I don't care how they work - they have made me money in one pocket and that's the real test in my eyes.
 
Jason Robichaud said:
I couldn't get the 1 ball to go one bank. I did get it once with the 2 ball. I think the blocker was a little lower though

CueTable Help

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Rep to you for trying it.

Do you see that getting the OB to come off the side rail at an angle must mean transferred sidespin works?

By the way, I don't make the shot most times on my table either - rails are too clean. On a table with old sticky rails you can make the shot easily; you can even hit the end rail before the pocket.

pj
chgo

P.S. If you're hitting it hard enough to go two times across the table, you're losing a lot of the transferred spin effect. Slow is better. The best hit for maximum transferred spin is pocket speed, 1/2 maximum sidespin and a stun hit (cue ball sliding, like a stop shot).
 
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lfigueroa said:
Just to throw another log on, in support of this weenie roast: it is entirely possible that the table you are playing on is not set up properly. My experience is that if the rails are just a touch higher than regulation, it is very difficult to get spin on an OB to take off the rail. At the other extreme, there is equipment out there on which you can twist balls like pretzels.

Having said all that: on a properly setup pool table, with anything approaching decent balls, you will be able to transfer enough spin to the OB to dramatically change its path off a rail.

Lou Figueroa
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Finally a sensible (and true) statement by a good solid player.
This whole thread is a fiasco.
The sad thing is, instead of the hardheaded one's learning, it falls on deaf ears.
I don't know how PJ or John or others, have the patience to argue with people who come across as complete novice's and obviously have not learned the simplest basics of pool.

Dick <----has been spinning OB's for 50+ years.
 
SJDinPHX said:
Finally a sensible (and true) statement by a good solid player.
This whole thread is a fiasco.
The sad thing is, instead of the hardheaded one's learning, it falls on deaf ears.
I don't know how PJ or John or others, have the patience to argue with people who come across as complete novice's and obviously have not learned the simplest basics of pool.

Dick <----has been spinning OB's for 50+ years.
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LOL, combined we have well over 100 yrs experience:)
 
Jason Robichaud said:
I am curious why no one will try another video for shits and giggles. Can you post a video of this shot you posted! Use shafts on each side on the OB and CB as guides making sure CB hits full and only transfer is causing the ball to bank...


ANY ONE TO END THIS THREAD POST A VIDEO. MY USB PORT IS DEAD OR I WOULD POST....


Can anyone post the example shot they gave using shafts or some other guide insuring full ball contact and the transfer banking the ball?
Click to expand...

MR. Robichaud,

Please give it up. You CANNOT win this argument, and you are making yourself look like a real beginner for even trying.

Respectfully

Dick
 
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SJDinPHX said:
MR. Robichaud,

Please give it up. You CANNOT win this argument, and you are making yourself look like a real beginner for even trying.

Respectfully

Dick
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I am not knocking anyones skill level or their opinion. I am asking for someone to prove this in a video not a diagram or a 2 inch slow motion video. You are making yourself look like a real *****... I would sooner look like a beginner. I even offered money/bet for someone to post video. Since you are the know it all... post the video. I can see the banks going in the sample diagrams and have made those banks. I am questioning transfer from the CB. I looks like a force on the OB that causes spin, like a left or right cue tip hit. I, unlike you, am open to change. I just want to see it done first. If someone posts the video I will even jump on the transfer wagon and try to get softshot to join.
 
Jason Robichaud said:
I am not knocking anyones skill level or their opinion. I am asking for someone to prove this in a video not a diagram or a 2 inch slow motion video. You are making yourself look like a real *****... I would sooner look like a beginner. I even offered money/bet for someone to post video. Since you are the know it all... post the video. I can see the banks going in the sample diagrams and have made those banks. I am questioning transfer from the CB. I looks like a force on the OB that causes spin, like a left or right cue tip hit. I, unlike you, am open to change. I just want to see it done first. If someone posts the video I will even jump on the transfer wagon and try to get softshot to join.
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I signed my post 'respectfully'...your name calling and attitude tells me you deserve to stay where you are, with your head firmly planted.... you know where.
If you would take the time to look, instead of argue, there are dozens of videos out there that disprove every point you've tried to make on this subject.
 
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If someone posts the video I will even jump on the transfer wagon and try to get softshot to join.
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Who cares? Believe what you want. Those who are capable of understanding this already do from what's been posted here so far. Dragging this thread out more would just give you more attention and your "ideas" more credibility, neither of which is deserved.

I, for one, am out.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
You don't need all that stuff. All you need is to ensure the OB doesn't hit the rail at an angle and a little cut angle on the shot in the wrong direction for collision-induced spin, like this:

CueTable Help



Show you're an open-minded truthseeker and try it.

pj
chgo
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Patrick, a big part of the problem is that he doesn't even understand collision induced spin yet. It appears that he usually or always get his CIS exactly backwards. In this previous post about your diagrammed shot he just seems confused and claims that the hit puts right left spin on the object ball...lol. The sad thing is I am almost certain that he intended to just say right.

Jason Robichaud said:
I have made it in matches! I am not hitting the OB dead middle. The CB hits left of center on the OB and this puts right left spin on the OB!
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I previously posted a video of the same basic shot as in your diagram above. It is the second shot about 40 seconds in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5cOLa7HtiM&NR=1
Notice in Jason's reply that he gets the collision induced spin exactly backwards as if it was helping the shot:

Jason Robichaud said:
The video is useless. It shows the OB being hit off center and that contact is putting siding on the ball the same as a cue tip does.
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There were several other times in this thread where he was repeatedly getting it backwards and kept blaming collision induced spin when the collision induced spin was actually working agaisnt the shot, not for it. I tried to correct him but I'm still not sure that he even gets collision induced spin yet.

Poolplaya9 said:
Do you know how to read? As I clearly stated in my post, the "off center" hit in shot two (forty seconds in) would have put LEFT english on the object ball (referring back to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5cOLa7HtiM&NR=1), but as you can clearly see in the video, the object ball clearly has RIGHT english. This right english could only have come from the transfer of the spin from the cue ball. It picked up so much of that right english in fact, that it actually first had to overcome and cancel out the collision induced left english that was actually working against it. The fact that the object ball was cut slighly to the right (which imparts left spin) actually helped to prove beyond any doubt that the object ball got all of it's right spin from the transfer of the cue ball's spin.

Hitting off center on the left side of the object ball (cutting it to the right) imparts left english, and hitting off center on the right side of the object ball (cutting it to the left) imparts right english. You keeping crying about how the object balls are being cut, but what you can't seem to get is that half the time (depending on which side you hit) cutting the ball is not helping you and is actually working against you (and putting the opposite english that was desired). Shot two (forty seconds into the above video) is just such as example of where the cut is putting the wrong (opposite) kind of english on the object ball and is working against you. Shot one in the same video (about 20 seconds in) is a good example of a cut that was working for you in helping to put the correct english. See the difference? No offense intended, but if you aren't even knowledgeable enough to know what type of spin is put on the object ball by a cut shot then you have no business being in this thread.
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Until he understands collision induced spin and stops getting it backwards every time, he is not going to understand the transfer of spin and will never realize how the videos like the one above prove the transfer of spin beyond all doubt. Somebody needs to help him understand collision induced spin before he has any chance with transfer of spin.
 
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