Can't do a draw shot to save my life

[Bob Jewett]

It's about stroke, and stroke is about one thing really: Acceleration. The tip has to be accelerating as it goes through the cue ball. ...

This is false.

In fact, the best, most efficient stroke is one that hits the ball when the cue stick is "coasting" without acceleration or deceleration. This has been discussed at length. There have been motion studies. One of those was at a major professional event. The twenty players tested all had near zero acceleration at impact for all standard shots -- draw, follow, stop.

It may help beginners to tell them to accelerate through the ball. Maybe it's OK to lie to them a little to stop them from stopping their stroke before it gets to the cue ball. But it's not really true.

 

[Garo 7]

This is false.

In fact, the best, most efficient stroke is one that hits the ball when the cue stick is "coasting" without acceleration or deceleration. This has been discussed at length. There have been motion studies. One of those was at a major professional event. The twenty players tested all had near zero acceleration at impact for all standard shots -- draw, follow, stop.

It may help beginners to tell them to accelerate through the ball. Maybe it's OK to lie to them a little to stop them from stopping their stroke before it gets to the cue ball. But it's not really true.

Well, this is interesting. When I watch the greatest players stroke the ball, it looks like acceleration to me. Be it a very small amount in many cases. But like it is part of the stroke. Well, honestly I think the point of acceleration as I was taught it is in the case where you want a lot of action on the ball. Less action, obviously it's less required.

But, maybe it is just the case needing think of it to get the even stroke, one that isn't slowing down. I could see this...

I guess you would know better than me. Maybe I should refrain from commenting anymore until I can actually function consistently as a player again. Which means you will probably be safe from comment for the rest of our natural lives.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

When I watch the greatest players stroke the ball, it looks like acceleration to me.

I think the common stroke Bob describes, that reaches its maximum speed just before contact and "coasts" into the CB at that speed, looks like acceleration too.

...maybe it is just the case needing think of it to get the even stroke, one that isn't slowing down. I could see this...

The important thing (the only thing the CB "feels") is the speed of the cue at contact - whether it's accelerating, coasting or decelerating is only important if it misses that correct speed at contact.

Decelerating is notorious for causing that speed error, which is likely why "accelerating through the ball" is a popular stroke mantra. I think the "coasting at contact" stroke is preferable because it's a natural acceleration curve for the arm and coasting into the CB at the chosen stroke speed creates a little margin for error.

pj
chgo

 

[3kushn]

I think the common stroke Bob describes, that reaches its maximum speed just before contact and "coasts" into the CB at that speed, looks like acceleration too.


The important thing (the only thing the CB "feels") is the speed of the cue at contact - whether it's accelerating, coasting or decelerating is only important if it misses that correct speed at contact.

Decelerating is notorious for causing that speed error, which is likely why "accelerating through the ball" is a popular stroke mantra. I think the "coasting at contact" stroke is preferable because it's a natural acceleration curve for the arm and coasting into the CB at the chosen stroke speed creates a little margin for error.

pj
chgo

So you and Bob are saying, there's no magic and nothing matters other than cue speed at contact and the contact point is accurate?
Plus of course no deceleration prior to contact? No deceleration = follow through IMO.

To me that sounds like follow through = penetrating the CB.

What am I not getting.
Why am I always working on my stroke?

Wide Open for Teaching.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So you and Bob are saying, there's no magic and nothing matters other than cue speed at contact and the contact point is accurate?

...and cue angle. I'm saying that at least - don't wanna speak for Bob, but I suspect he agrees.

Plus of course no deceleration prior to contact? No deceleration = follow through IMO.

I don't believe deceleration matters if the end result is the same speed at contact. But deceleration can be the culprit in changing the speed.

To me that sounds like follow through = penetrating the CB.

I think follow through is about not changing the stroke in anticipation of contact (by decelerating, for instance).

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

So you and Bob are saying, there's no magic and nothing matters other than cue speed at contact and the contact point is accurate?
Plus of course no deceleration prior to contact? No deceleration = follow through IMO.
...

It's not magic, but it is very hard to do consistently.

The physics is pretty simple. The speed of the ball is proportional to the speed of the stick at impact. The amount of spin compared to the speed is proportional to how far you hit from center. Faster stick, faster ball. More offset, more spin. High, low, left, right, the spins are pretty much all the same physics.

The grip hand at the instant of impact has almost no influence on the shot. Maybe it can make the stick act as if it is 1% lighter or heavier. This has been measured. This means there is much less magic than many players believe. You don't need 17 different magical stroke techniques to play well. One is fine for nearly all shots.

As I mentioned, hard to do consistently. On some shots I need to remind myself, "Let the cue do the work." That means, get the stick up to the needed speed and don't interfere. Smooth acceleration, smooth follow through. That is not technically required, as Bob Byrne pointed out a long time ago, but it makes shots much easier.

 

[FranCrimi]

So you and Bob are saying, there's no magic and nothing matters other than cue speed at contact and the contact point is accurate?
Plus of course no deceleration prior to contact? No deceleration = follow through IMO.

To me that sounds like follow through = penetrating the CB.

What am I not getting.
Why am I always working on my stroke?

Wide Open for Teaching.

It's good to know what actually happens, as guys like Pat and Bob show us. Although the idea of what we do up to the point of contact is irrelevant, as long as certain conditions are met at contact, sounds logical, it implies that the best we could strive for in executing a shot is robotic behavior. Is that really true?

Maybe not, because there are important variables left out of this theory. An actual game is not all about executing one shot. It's an all-inclusive endeavor, with decision-making, movement around the table, interactions with others, etc.

The mistake I think many players today are making, is in striving to be robotic. There has to be a flow of sorts linking our thoughts and our movements when we're at the table. For example: How we stroke shots may have similarity to how we move around the table when analyzing the table. There's a rhythm to it. Suddenly changing that rhythm and converting into a robot when down on the shot can be illogical and disruptive to who we are.

This may account for why players stroke differently from each other, and why they say there are different types of strokes -- even for the same player. In connecting the mind and body in different situations around the table, in keeping with his own rhythm, the player could very well be feeling different types of strokes in different situations --- and it may very well be necessary.

 

[snookered_again]

try lining up a bunch of balls down the center of the table, put the CB about half way between the rail and the row of balls.. You dont need to hit hard, just hit low and try to keep your cue down parallel to the table..

you can shoot the first in the side and try to draw back and get a line to the same side pocket on the next in the row.. when you mess up just reposition the CB how you like, you'll get so you can shot the whole row down , like a row of ducks. it'll help with controlling the position and angle of the CB, If you launch a few, oh well you will get it.

No you don't need to go dragging the tip around the cloth to draw balls. your tip does not need to touch the cloth, but it needs to be below the equator, try about half way.

you'll find you can also shoot downward and draw, its sometimes necesaary to , if your CB is lets say 6" from the rail then the cue can'tbe parallel to the table, but you can still make a draw shot.

as you hit the CB try to drive into it, a bit of follow through. try give it it a tap so the ball only goes 3-5 feet and the CB draws back a foot or so,

yes you can do some wild powerstroke and draw it the full length of the table ,, but don't start there, I'd focus on the basic technique first.. once you can draw then you can draw and slide a little sideways too or draw straight back out of the way of other balls, you will always be focused upon your next CB position.

If you want to do shots that intentionally cause the cue tip to touch the cloth I'd be polite enough to ask the guy that owns the cloth if it's ok. some will say its ok, others will say it's in bad form. I'd give the owner the chance to have input on that one.

what can happen is you somehow get ahold of a cue where there is a problem wiht the tip.. Say if the ferrule was a bit sharp on the edge and tip was off center or to small , something there could catch the cloth. If you damage the owner's cloth through some goof up, you should be prepared to pay for a new one with the installation costs added. If you can't afford that expense then you should be extra careful.

I know some players are so sloppy they use the sides of their cue to knock balls around or point to stuff on the table, dragging their tip about, leaving their chalk marks on the cloth, . if its their cue then fine, go ahead, beat it up, if its someone elses new cue, don't do that. pick up the ball,,

I hate it when people handle my personal belongings like that..

Others are much more polite.. The owner of a snooker table may be quite fussy about keeping the cloth in good condition with the nap all combed the same way all nice.
One little pock mark and you'll get cursed every time they look at it, which is probably every day, and a good cloth is expensive , and so is installation. you can put a scrap of cloth down on top of the cloth to practice and keep it a bit safer.

it is possible for someone to put so much intot he CB that the thing is basically doing a backward burnout across the cloth, that kind of play can leave a permanent "burn mark".

in some places the owner will get mad, particularily if he senses that you are inexperienced. The table owner can be quite worried about the expense of someone doing some damage and not paying for it.

do you take your shoes off when you enter someone elses house? some do , some never do, this is a thing to notice and maybe just ask.. If its your house, you get to decide how youd like to live. there is no correct answer.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So you and Bob are saying, there's no magic and nothing matters other than cue speed at contact and the contact point is accurate?
Plus of course no deceleration prior to contact? No deceleration = follow through IMO.

Assuming you hit the correct spot at the correct angle and speed, you could actually stop the cue immediately after contact (say, by using the "jam your grip hand into the rail" technique for close shots) and get the same good results as following through produces. Follow through only helps to ensure that your stroke stays online at the proper speed until contact.

pj
chgo

 

[snookered_again]

I found I could watch at least one of those videos you posted. I'm not quite as experienced as some here But I'd say try a lot lighter, get your cue down low, follow through. In the video you were taking really hard shots and the CB was sliding, not rolling backwards like you need it to upon impact. the result was hard stop shots with no draw.

You can draw with such a hard shot, it is possible, so you are probably trying to copy other hard shots like that that you've seen others do..

Id try putting the CB and OB about a foot apart and shoot the ball into the side pocket, just have the ball enter the pocket at a fairly slow speed.

it might help you not shoot quite so hard, at least at first. If you hit too low the ball will just hop a bit that way, rather than fire off the table. if you shoot that hard and hit a bit too low yea you will launch the ball. I think you know that and you are avoiding this happening by raising your cue.. once the shot is less violent it wont seem so dangerous because you won't be worried about launching it.

it doesn't take anywhere near that much energy, yes some can shoot that hard and they can draw the CB so hard it'll go end to end , twice! id suggest you just don't try to start with that, walk before you try to run.

look at your cue when you line up, try to get the whole cue down close to the table, just give it light tap but with some follow through.. pretend you are shooting through the CB and lower than center, rather than at it. it'll come back to you after impact then.

chalk often too. every shot isn't too much. no chalk will cause issues but that's easy to avoid. when the tip isn't chalked it won't have the same drive, to spin the CB. its easy to forget to chalk when you are doing a repetitive and quickly setup shot like that, in practice..You were probably focused on making the video not run too long so didn't stop to chalk again.

nice table ! it looks a lot like my Brunswick Balke Collender.

 

[snookered_again]

\ Then pull back slowly, and just go forward on the same line you came back on.

- Ive been trying to practice this( the slow backward draw before "launch" and I found it helped a great deal with accuracy. the rest of what was said makes sense too. I posted before I read all the comments but it wasn't so far off, id just try to shot lighter at first.

aside from draw, this control of the backspin helps a lot if you are trying to use some top or bottom so you can place the CB after impact.
what I'm saying is that the height will cause draw, stop or follow but also somewhere in between. being able to sort of feather that technique in a controllable way is not only for backspin but also to control the speed and distance of the CB after impact.

gaining a fine control is very useful in placing the CB, because it gives you a lot of control of how far the CB "chases" the OB after impact. the speed of the cloth has lots to do with all that. how far down the table the CB goes or if it returns. often makes or breaks the ease of the next shot.

i as an rexample, if an opponent left a ball in the middle of the table, and I didn't want to sink it,, I may choose to try to hit the end rail and return the object ball to the head cushion so that takes the right weight. and also try to do it with the right speed and spin on the CB to park the CB at the bottom rail, leaving distance between.

Its a common shot in snooker. often you can get lucky and manage to get other balls between. then he has to shoot from the rail ( with no access to the bottom of the ball) at a ball on the opposite end rail with traffic between.
the object is often just to not allow a setup, even if its not a hook we hope the opponent cant; make the next shot so then he may miss or scratch or since he has a difficult shot he has has a harder time hooking the next player. if both balls are in the center of the table, on the rail, or near that, he maybe able to do a long bank but on a snooker table that's a 24 foot distance so it's not probable unless you are a real pro.

To get those two balls to both stop on opposite rails ,
its all about the shot speed and top or bottom spin combined, less about direction. often it amounts to a control of how much follow,

my point in that wasnt to change the subject , just to say that the amunt of backspin or foreward spin is important, not only to draw balls but to be able to place them both in some accurate way.


its not a stop shot and its not chasing or passing the OB, it is making the CB slow after impact and stop at the rail and meanwhile enough energy it he OB to go just barely to the other end.

- the object is just to create separation. more distance. if done accurately you can try to get a hook by getting some other ball between the two.

its common for opponents to keep doing this both trying to not allow any easy shot and hitting the same ball back and forth until one makes some error and leaves an open. with an open shot a good opponent can start running balls as he then can both make a ball and has some control over his subsequent cue ball position.

 

[snookered_again]

I find for myself anyway that it is really easy to go to the table with so much crap in my head that I just play lousy and nothing works well,, Just takes time then. I think if I m micro focused upon technique it is a distraction, doesn't mean I can't improve or even that I'm not improving, but any time you change things up from what you naturally do I think that is often a little temporary setback,

even if its all good well intended and and useful. people play best when they are in their " zone" , somewhat relaxed not when they are being criticized, even when the critique is just all in your own head.

 

[Oikawa]

The better your fundamentals are, the easier it is to control power shots. Work on the most fundamental things (stability, stance, stroke, alignment, repeatibility, etc.) your draw will improve too as a byproduct.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

So you and Bob are saying, there's no magic and nothing matters other than cue speed at contact and the contact point is accurate?
Plus of course no deceleration prior to contact? No deceleration = follow through IMO.

To me that sounds like follow through = penetrating the CB.

What am I not getting.
Why am I always working on my stroke?

Wide Open for Teaching.

I do not recommend (for most players) that they consciously try to follow through a large distance. If a FULL, gentle backstroke is taken, the length of the backstroke is about equal to the length of follow through for smooth strokes. Acceleration (or coasting or decelerating) should be SMOOTH, not forced with the hand/arm IMHO.

 

[BC21]

Hello, Harvey here.

I tried searching this thread, but you can imagine how many hits I get for "draw."

Let me start by saying I started shooting pool at about age 12 and played regularly for the next 10 years, then stopped. I was completely self-taught and became quite good, even though I knew nothing about position play, english, draw, or any of that. Again, I had no teacher.

Around age 45 (about 12 years ago), I picked it up again. Much to my chagrin, I found I couldn't shoot worth you-know-what. So I bought books, videos, training aids, etc and used them extensively. I'm getting my shooting skills back but I still can't play position because my CB control, especially draw, sucks. The only time I can draw is when I'm six inches or less from the OB and strike it very hard. And even then the CB only comes back about 3 inches at most.

I'm following all the instructions I've read and watched: level stick; below center (half-tip, one tip), smooth stroke, etc. I've tried all different speeds and distances, with the only results being what I mentioned above.

I've played on all types of tables, too. From super fast to super slow.

Oh, and by the way, I can't make a stop shot either (except under the same circumstances above).

Can you help? I'd really like to get this before I'm too old to stand at the table!

Thanks!
Harvey

Use a stripe ball for the cb in this experiment:

Place the stripe ball so that the stripe is horizontal. Place another ball about a foot away and lined straight into a pocket. Put a fresh coat of chalk on your tip (not Taom, because you want to leave a good chalk mark on the ball, and Taom chalk doesn't do this as much as Masters or other chalk brands).

Now aim low for draw and shoot the shot, medium speed. Grab the stripe ball and look for the chalk mark to see exactly how low the tip actually struck the ball.

The miscue limit is very close to the width of the stripe, so check to see if you were anywhere close to that point. I think you'll find that you are hitting closer to center ball than to that miscue limit.

Here's a picture to help explain how to place the stripe. The little red circles indicate maximum aim points for straight top or bottom spin.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Use a stripe ball for the cb in this experiment: ...

Sadly, @PaulHarvey has not been with us for ten years.

Good advice, though.

 

[BC21]

Sadly, @PaulHarvey has not been with us for ten years.

Good advice, though.

Wow, never noticed that someone resurrected a 10+ year old thread.

 

[FranCrimi]

Sadly, @PaulHarvey has not been with us for ten years.

Good advice, though.

And Neil too --- passed about 5 or 6 years ago. If someone's going to resurrect an old thread, then it would be polite to others if they were to note that in their post.