Can't get my stroke straight. AARf
- Thread starter Solartje
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After looking more at the video's it seemed like my grip did something, that set up a whole chain of reactions. So i have been watching my grip during strokes, and i found something i never saw before , and that could be the initial problem.
When doing warmup strokes, my tip doesnt go as far as in a normal stroke, and my cue (held by 3 fingers) doesnt touch the back (palm) of my hand. But when stroking trough the ball it touches my palm (or the thick part under my thumb). The harder i stroke, the harder it pushes upwards against my palm. As my cue touches my palm on the left side and goes up, it pushes my hand into a clockwise rotation around the cue, wich itself might be the cause for the arm movement (maybe in combination with tightened shoulder muscle?)
I hope this video makes it clear.(ps this is exagerated
not taken from a stroke).
Johhny: Thanks for saving me a year of muscle tightening I wont try that then.
After looking more at the video's it seemed like my grip did something, that set up a whole chain of reactions. So i have been watching my grip during strokes, and i found something i never saw before , and that could be the initial problem.
When doing warmup strokes, my tip doesnt go as far as in a normal stroke, and my cue (held by 3 fingers) doesnt touch the back (palm) of my hand. But when stroking trough the ball it touches my palm (or the thick part under my thumb). The harder i stroke, the harder it pushes upwards against my palm. As my cue touches my palm on the left side and goes up, it pushes my hand into a clockwise rotation around the cue, wich itself might be the cause for the arm movement (maybe in combination with tightened shoulder muscle?)
I hope this video makes it clear.(ps this is exagerated
not taken from a stroke).
Johhny: Thanks for saving me a year of muscle tightening
I wont try that then.
Neil, are you sure about it? or are you talking about the final stroke?
Because in the warmup strokes, everything is perfectly in line.
(The line is not vertical because the camera was not perfectly horizontal, but im pritty sure cb, tip, dominant eye, shoulder, elbow, grip are all in one plane.
(might be an optical illusion due to the image, but if you compare the stroke plane with the horizontal rails of the diamond, they are 90°)
EDIT: i moved my shoulder an inch further and it looks like it is already improving the straightness in soft strokes. On harder strokes with longer folow trough, the cue hitting palm thing is still bothering me.
(sorry ive im over analysing, but i just want to resolve this problem once and for all.)
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I guessed right... see how far your hand is from your hip. I posted that this will cause what you are doing with your arm. Your arm in going into your body, a natural path, during the stroke. You need to get that right leg on your shot, rather than arch your back rotate your body.
How to: Step right leg on shot then put left leg a little ahead of right (shoulder width apart). Now before you get down with your body facing straight, rotate your body to the right until your right nipple is lined with your right knee (about 30-45 degrees). Now get down on shot. This will keep that back hand closer to body and give you a starting position. Move around until you are comfortable. When you stroke, your arm will stay next to body where it appears that is wants to go. Give this a quick try.
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very interesting, i have had similar problems (shoulder twist on power shots and wrist twisting when tense). I am a bit confused with the thumb thing you guys are saying. Someone said to point it down the cue (on top of the cue down the shot line?) and someone said to point it down.
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If you place your thumb on top of the cue, directed along it's top, it will move your wrist into the desired neutral position. Once this is established, I would suggest dropping the thumb so that it points downward. You should be able to maintain the neutral wrist position, and this will help keep your elbow in line.
very interesting, i have had similar problems (shoulder twist on power shots and wrist twisting when tense). I am a bit confused with the thumb thing you guys are saying. Someone said to point it down the cue (on top of the cue down the shot line?) and someone said to point it down.
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If you place your thumb on top of the cue, directed along it's top, it will move your wrist into the desired neutral position. Once this is established, I would suggest dropping the thumb so that it points downward. You should be able to maintain the neutral wrist position, and this will help keep your elbow in line.
they must mean down at the floor. I can't see them saying down cue - on top of cue.
heh I tried playing with it on top of the cue, it was awful feeling!
according to this test, my wrist is already neutral. However, when I am out of stroke and stroke very hard, sometimes I let my wrist twist causing horrible accuracy. Thumb on top of the cue actually prevented it but messed up all other stuff!
according to this test, my wrist is already neutral. However, when I am out of stroke and stroke very hard, sometimes I let my wrist twist causing horrible accuracy. Thumb on top of the cue actually prevented it but messed up all other stuff!
Straight Stroking
Here are some things to look at. Are you punching or tightening up your grip hand when you go in to the cue ball? Sounds to me like that is what you are doing. On the softer shots, you don't do this and go through straight. On the harder ones, you are most likely punching or tightening up. That causes all sorts of errors.
My suggestion is to watch some clips of Efren or Johnny Archer to see how they go through smoothly.
Try this to get the hang of this loose feeling. Swing at a shot and try to have the cue stick slide forward a little at the end of the shot. You can't do this if you are tightening up.
Good luck and let me know how it works.
Mark//BCA Advanced Instructor
Here are some things to look at. Are you punching or tightening up your grip hand when you go in to the cue ball? Sounds to me like that is what you are doing. On the softer shots, you don't do this and go through straight. On the harder ones, you are most likely punching or tightening up. That causes all sorts of errors.
My suggestion is to watch some clips of Efren or Johnny Archer to see how they go through smoothly.
Try this to get the hang of this loose feeling. Swing at a shot and try to have the cue stick slide forward a little at the end of the shot. You can't do this if you are tightening up.
Good luck and let me know how it works.
Mark//BCA Advanced Instructor
I think your upper arm breaks down, which forces your hand out, which makes your wrist turn, which makes your strike across the ball, which makes you miss.
You can either work on fixing the root cause, or experiment with throwing your cue completely through the CB or allowing it to slide in your hand. Once you release the cue, your arm/mechanics are no longer relevant.
Pick a spot on the CB you want to hit and release the cue to that point. I do this often on longer shots.
You can either work on fixing the root cause, or experiment with throwing your cue completely through the CB or allowing it to slide in your hand. Once you release the cue, your arm/mechanics are no longer relevant.
Pick a spot on the CB you want to hit and release the cue to that point. I do this often on longer shots.
the shoulder has nothing to do with any shot and should move as little as possible, throwing ur shoulder into the shot u will break ur wrist on the shot and the wrist is a flexible joint, so ur arm will be going everywhere, unintentional side hitting across the ball etc...
i coach people to use the elbow to drive the cue through, dropping the elbow creaters more control and accuracy as its a stiff joint and goes 1 way only,
i have had bca instructors, giving me grief saying its wrong to drop the elbow, most of the best players in the world do this, so there doing something wrong.
its the best coaching you will get learning how to do this with controlling it, i worked with del hill who is world snooker head coach and taught ronnie o sullivan for 8 years to do this, he is the best player in the world, daryl peach went to del and then won the world title.
the world snooker coaching manual has been ripped up and a new manual being put in place to teach the elbow drop, the pool world needs to do the same thing and learn from this every sport advances over the years like golf has pool can also do this with learning these techniques are not flaws but actually the way to go and to embrace the elbow drop as the way to play the game..
my flak jacket is now on as i wait for the abuse lol....
i coach people to use the elbow to drive the cue through, dropping the elbow creaters more control and accuracy as its a stiff joint and goes 1 way only,
i have had bca instructors, giving me grief saying its wrong to drop the elbow, most of the best players in the world do this, so there doing something wrong
.its the best coaching you will get learning how to do this with controlling it, i worked with del hill who is world snooker head coach and taught ronnie o sullivan for 8 years to do this, he is the best player in the world, daryl peach went to del and then won the world title.
the world snooker coaching manual has been ripped up and a new manual being put in place to teach the elbow drop, the pool world needs to do the same thing and learn from this every sport advances over the years like golf has pool can also do this with learning these techniques are not flaws but actually the way to go and to embrace the elbow drop as the way to play the game..
my flak jacket is now on as i wait for the abuse lol....
thanks for the extra info and tips.
I've had some time this weekend to test out the different things.
- thumb above cue. (it really helps to check if your grip is correct.) Hasn't helped me personally much though, but a GREATH tip. if i feel that i'm missing balls, i will for sure use it to check my grip
- shoulder wider. I have tried it, and ofcourse it did feel unnaturaly, but it seems to help a little.
- feet. Even if I thought that this would be the tip that would be of no use, i was wrong. Of all that has been said, (in the small amount of testing i had), this seemed to have cured 80% of the problem. It troubles me that i have to think about my feet before every shot again but thats the way it is. No other way around. This didnt resolve the elbow movement THAT much, but it SURELY has increased my potting %, (or i just had a GREATH day of pool). MY shoulders are now straighter facing the shot. It also seems to have changed my griphand. Where before i could only use a lose wrist, i can now use a tighter grip without messing up my stroke. Im not saying I will use a tighter grip but if both choices now give a straight stroke, it means it must be doing something right.
- holding my cue more level, and moving my head 4" above the cue, instead of RIGHT on the cue, gives me more space for my grip hand to move before it hits any body part. I noticed that in excactly the same position and the tip contacting the CB at the same time, if i move my head abit higher the angle in between my lower and upperarm gets bigger, and makes me folow trough more before the stroke is completed.
about the tips:
- i know exactly why you are refering to efren and busta. There lose wrist on powerstrokes are. I have tried to copy it, but I havent been able to do so, so far. Its HARD. I will give it another try, after getting the arm movement completly out of my game.
lee: I won't change my elbow drop. it feels better to me, and i dont think it influences my problem.
spiderweb: i'll give the throw stroke a try. What exactly do you mean by: my upper arm is breaking down? could you be more specific?
neil: greath idea about the no cue stroke. If i get what you are saying, i need to find a body position, where the no cue pendulum will naturally be in the same line of the shot. greath !!! more testing asap. The palm thing, might be after the contact... not sure. I ll have to check the video's from another angle to see what it does.
ps i always learned to position my body like buddy hall said.
Place the cue level in you right hand, arm stretched, next to you hip, pointing into the shot. Then move you left foot forward, and twist your right foot 30-40° outwards. Maybe my foot are in the right place, but my upperbody is twisted to the right to much, so that my head is not in between my feet anymore....
I REALLY would like to thank everyone so far. Im getting Many directions for my cure. If one will cure it, i will own you one. I will try to find some time to make some new video's and post some results. Hope you will still be here to finetune it even more. I have no option to get to an instructor in my country, so i guess you guys are all i have to help me get better. No matter how stupid i look in my video
I've had some time this weekend to test out the different things.
- thumb above cue. (it really helps to check if your grip is correct.) Hasn't helped me personally much though, but a GREATH tip. if i feel that i'm missing balls, i will for sure use it to check my grip
- shoulder wider. I have tried it, and ofcourse it did feel unnaturaly, but it seems to help a little.
- feet. Even if I thought that this would be the tip that would be of no use, i was wrong. Of all that has been said, (in the small amount of testing i had), this seemed to have cured 80% of the problem. It troubles me that i have to think about my feet before every shot again
but thats the way it is. No other way around. This didnt resolve the elbow movement THAT much, but it SURELY has increased my potting %, (or i just had a GREATH day of pool). MY shoulders are now straighter facing the shot. It also seems to have changed my griphand. Where before i could only use a lose wrist, i can now use a tighter grip without messing up my stroke. Im not saying I will use a tighter grip but if both choices now give a straight stroke, it means it must be doing something right.- holding my cue more level, and moving my head 4" above the cue, instead of RIGHT on the cue, gives me more space for my grip hand to move before it hits any body part. I noticed that in excactly the same position and the tip contacting the CB at the same time, if i move my head abit higher the angle in between my lower and upperarm gets bigger, and makes me folow trough more before the stroke is completed.
about the tips:
- i know exactly why you are refering to efren and busta. There lose wrist on powerstrokes are
. I have tried to copy it, but I havent been able to do so, so far. Its HARD. I will give it another try, after getting the arm movement completly out of my game.lee: I won't change my elbow drop. it feels better to me, and i dont think it influences my problem.
spiderweb: i'll give the throw stroke a try. What exactly do you mean by: my upper arm is breaking down? could you be more specific?
neil: greath idea about the no cue stroke. If i get what you are saying, i need to find a body position, where the no cue pendulum will naturally be in the same line of the shot. greath !!! more testing asap. The palm thing, might be after the contact... not sure. I ll have to check the video's from another angle to see what it does.
ps i always learned to position my body like buddy hall said.
Place the cue level in you right hand, arm stretched, next to you hip, pointing into the shot. Then move you left foot forward, and twist your right foot 30-40° outwards. Maybe my foot are in the right place, but my upperbody is twisted to the right to much, so that my head is not in between my feet anymore....
I REALLY would like to thank everyone so far. Im getting Many directions for my cure. If one will cure it, i will own you one. I will try to find some time to make some new video's and post some results. Hope you will still be here to finetune it even more. I have no option to get to an instructor in my country, so i guess you guys are all i have to help me get better. No matter how stupid i look in my video
ok guys
I tried all the different things you added tonight.
a/ The tip that really helped was potting some balls and letting the cue slip trough my hand. like it has been said, it was impossible to stear the stroke doing this.
b/I noticed some slight body movement (my head moved up in the final stroke) so i removed that.
c/The grip twist is happening after the contact. I taped it from several sides, and it doesnt influence the shot in any way. Even if its not as beautiful as i wished.
D/ I'm not using my shoulder in anyway. Only the elbow drop, but its just natural folow of the stroke, not my muscles tightening up to move my shoulder down.
I still do need to move it 1 inch more outwards , but that will take time before i do it naturally. All the rest didnt take more then 15min to master.
I taped from different directions, and it is straightened out and the cue is as level as possible. Any lower and it hits the rail
Me who tought it would take another year, just took me 2 days with you, and 2 hours on the table. maybe this was again another lucky night, but i dont think so: to give an example. I did 50/50 on a table lenght straight in shots 1 ball from the side rail, and i made a 2pack on the first 2 racks of 9b i played.
I did check some older videos of long trainingsessions, and it seems i did straighten up my arm naturally after some time (even if it never was perfect straight, it became straighter, the longer i played). Now it is straight from ball 1, and i'm already seeing the differences.
in short: HUGE thanks, and im SO glad this was a quick fix.
ps here a short video of how it looks from the side. Looks good to me right? Im still hitting my chest at the end but its after cb contact. (Just for looks sake, any tip on how to avoid the chest/shoulder hit?
I tried all the different things you added tonight.
a/ The tip that really helped was potting some balls and letting the cue slip trough my hand. like it has been said, it was impossible to stear the stroke doing this.
b/I noticed some slight body movement (my head moved up in the final stroke) so i removed that.
c/The grip twist is happening after the contact. I taped it from several sides, and it doesnt influence the shot in any way. Even if its not as beautiful as i wished.
D/ I'm not using my shoulder in anyway. Only the elbow drop, but its just natural folow of the stroke, not my muscles tightening up to move my shoulder down.
I still do need to move it 1 inch more outwards , but that will take time before i do it naturally. All the rest didnt take more then 15min to master.
I taped from different directions, and it is straightened out and the cue is as level as possible. Any lower and it hits the rail
Me who tought it would take another year, just took me 2 days with you, and 2 hours on the table. maybe this was again another lucky night, but i dont think so: to give an example. I did 50/50 on a table lenght straight in shots 1 ball from the side rail, and i made a 2pack on the first 2 racks of 9b i played.
I did check some older videos of long trainingsessions, and it seems i did straighten up my arm naturally after some time (even if it never was perfect straight, it became straighter, the longer i played). Now it is straight from ball 1, and i'm already seeing the differences.
in short: HUGE thanks, and im SO glad this was a quick fix.
ps here a short video of how it looks from the side. Looks good to me right? Im still hitting my chest at the end but its after cb contact. (Just for looks sake, any tip on how to avoid the chest/shoulder hit?
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nothing is wrong with hitting the chest, it can be a great reference for a finish position. you can try standing up a little more or moving your grip hand back (90 degrees to the cue at contact point).
what did you adjust with your feet? i recently found problems with my alignment that I am trying to work on as well.
what did you adjust with your feet? i recently found problems with my alignment that I am trying to work on as well.
i make sure my head is in between my 2 feet. Its not in the middle, as that makes me feel uncomfortable after some time. its more 70% to right (if 50% is center between feet). It forces your body to be more square vs the table. I just place my feet 1 feet more to the right then usual, and try to turn my body as square as possible or i stand in front of the line of shot, place my right feet, right of that line, and the left feet where i feel comfortable.
I havent tried this in a 10h+ training yet to see if i feel comfortable with it, but i will try it out soon and see if i can keep it.
It helped my straight in pots ALOT, but it didnt do as much for the bad stroke as the cue-slippin'-trough-your-fingers-tip.
about the chest hitting, i watched some players (efren for example) and he raises on the last stroke, and drops his elbow even more then me, so he has naturally more place to folow trough without hitting the chest. like i said, its pure a aestetic thing its not puting any side at all.
ps ive been watching higgins his stroke on eurosport for a week now.... And its so perfect , its heavenly.
ps is there still some things to change to my stroke, or is it good to go ?
need more vids from other angles?
I havent tried this in a 10h+ training yet to see if i feel comfortable with it, but i will try it out soon and see if i can keep it.
It helped my straight in pots ALOT, but it didnt do as much for the bad stroke as the cue-slippin'-trough-your-fingers-tip.
about the chest hitting, i watched some players (efren for example) and he raises on the last stroke, and drops his elbow even more then me, so he has naturally more place to folow trough without hitting the chest. like i said, its pure a aestetic thing
its not puting any side at all.ps ive been watching higgins his stroke on eurosport for a week now.... And its so perfect , its heavenly.
ps is there still some things to change to my stroke, or is it good to go ?
need more vids from other angles?
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last update, as i feel i ow you at least some updates.
I have been potting GREATh at home, but still needed a good test. So today there was a houstournament. Perfect to test out the new stroke in tournament. 9-ball, race to 6. First match, i get behind very quick 4-0 to a guy who is alot better then me, but i just had some bad run of the balls. nothing on the break and snookered when opponent missed. Well i run 6 frames and won 4-6. I made some UNbelievable pots, its amazing !! best part of all, besides feeling more confident wich is also good, my positional play is alot better. I thought i had to train that after the stroke, but it is obvious now i missed alot of positions due to the bad stroke. So now i got a stroke and potting ability i could only dream off, AND my positional play is better AND i feel confident.
I want to give something back to all who helped me, because i feel bad to get this free advise. I went from a B to a A level player in a matter of 2 weeks . I always thought geting from B to A would take at LEAST a year or 2-3. I still can't believe it. At home im not even playing 9ball anymore, but im throwing 11 or 12 balls on the table to have any chalenge. It just feels like i have always know how to play, but the bad stroke runed it all. its just all coming together. Either i'm in the zone for one week now, or i just made the biggest jumpt in playing level since i started 10years ago.
To put in numbers how better the results are. If i was 100% before the help, i'm now at 200% at least. Ive only been able to beat the 7ball ghost in a race to 10, but i'm sure i can beat the 9ball ghost in a race to 10 now. Thats how greath the improvement is.
Today was the best day of pool in my life. I don't think i ever enjoyed playing as much as today. Thanks for this AZB !!!! you made me a VERY happy man. sudenly the game became SO much easier and its a real pleasure to be clearing one rack after the other, and feel like any ball is a hanger. Even if i do still miss some ocasional positions, knowing that your potting ability will get you back in controle of the table is a bless.
I'm sorry for all the superlatives (sp?) or if this sound exagerated, but its pure hapyness speaking.
Sunday i have the finals of the national championship, and one week later the final of the state championship, and i can't wait to let the new stroke out
I have been potting GREATh at home, but still needed a good test. So today there was a houstournament. Perfect to test out the new stroke in tournament. 9-ball, race to 6. First match, i get behind very quick 4-0 to a guy who is alot better then me, but i just had some bad run of the balls. nothing on the break and snookered when opponent missed. Well i run 6 frames and won 4-6. I made some UNbelievable pots, its amazing !! best part of all, besides feeling more confident wich is also good, my positional play is alot better. I thought i had to train that after the stroke, but it is obvious now i missed alot of positions due to the bad stroke. So now i got a stroke and potting ability i could only dream off, AND my positional play is better AND i feel confident.
I want to give something back to all who helped me, because i feel bad to get this free advise. I went from a B to a A level player in a matter of 2 weeks . I always thought geting from B to A would take at LEAST a year or 2-3. I still can't believe it. At home im not even playing 9ball anymore, but im throwing 11 or 12 balls on the table to have any chalenge. It just feels like i have always know how to play, but the bad stroke runed it all. its just all coming together. Either i'm in the zone for one week now, or i just made the biggest jumpt in playing level since i started 10years ago.
To put in numbers how better the results are. If i was 100% before the help, i'm now at 200% at least. Ive only been able to beat the 7ball ghost in a race to 10, but i'm sure i can beat the 9ball ghost in a race to 10 now. Thats how greath the improvement is.
Today was the best day of pool in my life. I don't think i ever enjoyed playing as much as today. Thanks for this AZB !!!! you made me a VERY happy man. sudenly the game became SO much easier and its a real pleasure to be clearing one rack after the other, and feel like any ball is a hanger. Even if i do still miss some ocasional positions, knowing that your potting ability will get you back in controle of the table is a bless.
I'm sorry for all the superlatives (sp?) or if this sound exagerated, but its pure hapyness speaking.
Sunday i have the finals of the national championship, and one week later the final of the state championship, and i can't wait to let the new stroke out
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nice job, good luck at the championships! You deserved the advice with your desire to improve and taking very nice videos.
I am jealous of your improvement, I have a lot of kinks to work out in my stroke still. Usually I start off near great but after an hour or so everything just degenerates. I'm going to start taking my video camera to the pool hall every time to see exactly what happens.
I am jealous of your improvement, I have a lot of kinks to work out in my stroke still. Usually I start off near great but after an hour or so everything just degenerates. I'm going to start taking my video camera to the pool hall every time to see exactly what happens.
neil when your holding your cue to far forward its called your cueing inside which means you will hit the ball early, as for your weight to far back, you need to have a set up as to the way you walk into a shot so that your standing in the correct position every time on each shot, hope this helps you
thx johnnyz86 for the nice words. It does take balls to post a BAD stroke.
About taking the camera with you, i greathly advice it. after the advice, i worked on the stroke daily and taped it daily and then took an hour to analyse the video's. BAd habbits are hard to lose, and you want to be sure that if you are not slipping back into bad habbits and that you notice it as quick as possible and thats where the camera is your best friend. In your case, you could play for an hour, tape it, then check the last minut and see what you are doing wrong, change it, play for another hour, check video etc... untill the you are doing longer sessions with a good stroke. its just muscle memory. you just need to reherse as often as the stroke needs to, to become natural.
In the tournament, it took me 1 match where i consiously had to think about the tips that where posted before bending down, but after one match ,the arm became loose and i never thought about it again till the day after.
I really hope to win the state championship though
Our team won it 2 years ago, but i wasnt in the final team. I'm the weak link . If we win it this year, as we are moving to another houseclub, the team will give me the trophy for all the hard work I did. Semi's should be easy. We beat both clubs 3 out of 3, but in the finals, my match will probably be the decider. I lost 6-0 last meating wich made me post this thread... That beating woke me up. We are the underdog for the finals, but thats the spot i prefere
They also have no idea about my progress so everything is in my advantage to win the mental battle. I'm READY for a rematch and my first trophy after 4 years of pool.about holding cue a little forward. It just feels better to me. if you hit cb at 90° the cue is going horizontal. If you hold the cue early, you hit the cb when the tip is still going up. I don't know, it just feels like the very slightly upwards movement gives me a better ball contact. I could change it, but im not fixing whats not broken.
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