Capped or un-capped ferrule and why....?

C

cscott67

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Years ago I modified a schon shaft by cutting the ferrule down so that the tip was glued to the wood of the shaft in the center and the ferrule on the outside. Seemed to me the new combo was able to produce a lot more english compared to the standard longer capped ferrule.

So, I am curious as to why each is used, pro's and con's?

My other question is in regards to the size of the tenon in the ferrule or thickness of the ferrule. Is there a limit or preference in size/thickness that has anything to do with playability? Thanks in advance for any comments/ideas, Scott
 
cscott67 said:
Years ago I modified a schon shaft by cutting the ferrule down so that the tip was glued to the wood of the shaft in the center and the ferrule on the outside. Seemed to me the new combo was able to produce a lot more english compared to the standard longer capped ferrule.

Scott
Click to expand...

If you say you had more english I'm thinkin' the center part of the tip had more give. But, I'm no expert.....the man to ask is BLUD,he's probably experimented with just about everything in his time.

Terry
 
The old Schons had a real hard ferrule that played really hard. So the more of that ferrule you could get rid of the less hard the feel and more response you would get out of the tip. Getting rid of the old Micarta ferrule helped Schon's hit tremendously IMO.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
 
Capped Ferrules

cscott67 said:
Years ago I modified a schon shaft by cutting the ferrule down so that the tip was glued to the wood of the shaft in the center and the ferrule on the outside. Seemed to me the new combo was able to produce a lot more english compared to the standard longer capped ferrule.

So, I am curious as to why each is used, pro's and con's?

My other question is in regards to the size of the tenon in the ferrule or thickness of the ferrule. Is there a limit or preference in size/thickness that has anything to do with playability? Thanks in advance for any comments/ideas, Scott
Click to expand...


Your observations are excellent and you pose some very good questions. I considered the very same problems when I first became a cuemaker. The first was “Why would a cuemaker use a capped ferrule instead of a thru ferrule. The tenon does not make contact with the end of the ferrule or the tip. In fact there is a void (supposedly filled in by glue at the end of the tenon). In the thru ferrule configuration the tenon passes thru to the very end of the ferrule and is faced off perfectly flat along with the ferrule. They both make contact with the tip, the tip seats on the end of the ferrule and the end of the wooden tenon.

The advantage of the capped ferrule is that it is good for the cuemaker. The threads on the capped ferrule hold everything in place so the cuemaker can immediately install the tip and cut everything to size without waiting for the glue to set. Most cuemakers use Elmer’s Glue for this application which is a water based formula and it raises the grain in the wood and then it dries up leaving a void in place of the water. I have removed many of these capped ferrules to find this void. The other problem is that when the tenon dries up it shrinks back to size and has a tendency to pull away from the ferrule that does not shrink along with the tenon. I have seen a customer bring his shaft to a booth, have the ferrule and tip replaced, the shaft returned to the customer, change made, all in 7 minutes from start to finish. It takes me one hour to make the ferrule, install the ferrule with epoxy glue, wait for the glue to set and install the tip. If you are a cuemaker 7 minutes versus 1 hour makes a lot of sense. I agree that the thru ferrule configuration plays better than the capped ferrule and I like the solid hit and feedback it produces, but that’s just my opinion.

I use a 5/16 (.313) tenon in my cues. The capped ferrule configuration uses a much smaller threaded tenon that is too weak and produces too much bend in my opinion. A shorter ferrule/tenon at 5/16 diameter is the best trade off considering the diameter of the shaft’s tip, the tenon size and the wall thickness of the ferrule. In short – If you make the tenon bigger then you must make the hole in the ferrule larger and that makes the wall of the ferrule thinner. I like a tip size of .500 inch (about 12.75 mm), 5/16 tenon, ¾ inch long and either Ivory or Melamine Ferrule with a medium tip.
 
Arnot Wadsworth said:
Your observations are excellent and you pose some very good questions. I considered the very same problems when I first became a cuemaker. The first was “Why would a cuemaker use a capped ferrule instead of a thru ferrule. The tenon does not make contact with the end of the ferrule or the tip. In fact there is a void (supposedly filled in by glue at the end of the tenon). In the thru ferrule configuration the tenon passes thru to the very end of the ferrule and is faced off perfectly flat along with the ferrule. They both make contact with the tip, the tip seats on the end of the ferrule and the end of the wooden tenon.

The advantage of the capped ferrule is that it is good for the cuemaker. The threads on the capped ferrule hold everything in place so the cuemaker can immediately install the tip and cut everything to size without waiting for the glue to set. Most cuemakers use Elmer’s Glue for this application which is a water based formula and it raises the grain in the wood and then it dries up leaving a void in place of the water. I have removed many of these capped ferrules to find this void. The other problem is that when the tenon dries up it shrinks back to size and has a tendency to pull away from the ferrule that does not shrink along with the tenon. I have seen a customer bring his shaft to a booth, have the ferrule and tip replaced, the shaft returned to the customer, change made, all in 7 minutes from start to finish. It takes me one hour to make the ferrule, install the ferrule with epoxy glue, wait for the glue to set and install the tip. If you are a cuemaker 7 minutes versus 1 hour makes a lot of sense. I agree that the thru ferrule configuration plays better than the capped ferrule and I like the solid hit and feedback it produces, but that’s just my opinion.

I use a 5/16 (.313) tenon in my cues. The capped ferrule configuration uses a much smaller threaded tenon that is too weak and produces too much bend in my opinion. A shorter ferrule/tenon at 5/16 diameter is the best trade off considering the diameter of the shaft’s tip, the tenon size and the wall thickness of the ferrule. In short – If you make the tenon bigger then you must make the hole in the ferrule larger and that makes the wall of the ferrule thinner. I like a tip size of .500 inch (about 12.75 mm), 5/16 tenon, ¾ inch long and either Ivory or Melamine Ferrule with a medium tip.
Click to expand...



I've had to change alot of capped ferules, because of the glue void making a tinking sound, and due to the undersized tenons breaking. IMO It is a matter as preference as to which type of hit someone likes. I use to replace them with a larger slip tenon, but have found that for some the change is to much from what they are use to, so I will thread them In some cases. for the most part I like the larger tenon myself.

Also not a fan of the white glue, I guess It does create a cleaner look at the shoulder faces, but have seen them come loose on the shoulder while still glued to the end of the threads, and had to replace for that reason also. I prefer epoxy on them. does not seem to leave much of a glue line for me to be an issue, if any at all, and holds up better It seems to me.

There are alot of fine cuemakers capable of doing either, All in all there is nothing wrong with either type If done correctly, and it really depends on the person shooting with them, and what they are used to, because they do seem to produce a slightly different hit. Just My take from repairs I have had over the years.

Greg
 
I use a 5/16 (.313) tenon in my cues. The capped ferrule configuration uses a much smaller threaded tenon that is too weak and produces too much bend in my opinion
Click to expand...
Arnie, why not leave a shoulder at the bottom of the threaded tenon?
.313 by .200" long, and keep the rest at .282 and thread them?
Would the gap below the cap matter if slow setting epoxy was used?
They become harder than wood itself.
 
Arnot makes a good point about the wood shrinking, that's the biggest reason imo that cuemakers use this type of ferrule. If the wooden tenon shrinks a bit, the cue will hit funny and the customer will think something is wrong with the cue. We all know how easy that is to fix, but what the customer thinks matters most....why take a chance. Ferrules that aren't threaded on can come away a bit from the shaft, especially when the wood shrinks. All of the capped ferrules I've done and seen are threaded and glued (I use epoxy) which is a much better way to put the ferrule on. They will never come loose and the epoxy doesn't leave the void that occurs with white glue. We spoke about the wood shrinking, it expands too and I've seen cues with the tips still glued to the tenon but not touching the ferrule material. This simply doesn't happen with the capped style.
Mike
www.customcuemaker.com
 
Thanks to all those replying so far.....

So it seems there are definately pro's and con's.

Mr. Arnot, do you use a fiber pad on your shafts when using an ivory ferrule? Or is this only needed on a capped style of ferrule? Thanks again for posting, Scott
 
Pancerny said:
Arnot makes a good point about the wood shrinking, that's the biggest reason imo that cuemakers use this type of ferrule. If the wooden tenon shrinks a bit, the cue will hit funny and the customer will think something is wrong with the cue. We all know how easy that is to fix, but what the customer thinks matters most....why take a chance. Ferrules that aren't threaded on can come away a bit from the shaft, especially when the wood shrinks. All of the capped ferrules I've done and seen are threaded and glued (I use epoxy) which is a much better way to put the ferrule on. They will never come loose and the epoxy doesn't leave the void that occurs with white glue. We spoke about the wood shrinking, it expands too and I've seen cues with the tips still glued to the tenon but not touching the ferrule material. This simply doesn't happen with the capped style.
Mike
Click to expand...

I think most of the time you see a gap under a ferrule or like you say, under the tip, it's because of the ferrule shrinking. Fiber ferrules were somewhat common for a while, and if they get wet at all they do funny things.
I normally do ferrules like you do, threaded on with epoxy. I have a very close tolerance on the lenght of the tenon, and apply liberal amounts of glue, which ends up pouring out the glue releif hole in the end of the ferrule. Unless glue disappears, there is no void.
Something about having that positive holding action of the threads just seems RIGHT.
Most methods if implemented properly, will work just fine.
 
Pancerny said:
Arnot makes a good point about the wood shrinking, that's the biggest reason imo that cuemakers use this type of ferrule. If the wooden tenon shrinks a bit, the cue will hit funny and the customer will think something is wrong with the cue. We all know how easy that is to fix, but what the customer thinks matters most....why take a chance. Ferrules that aren't threaded on can come away a bit from the shaft, especially when the wood shrinks. All of the capped ferrules I've done and seen are threaded and glued (I use epoxy) which is a much better way to put the ferrule on. They will never come loose and the epoxy doesn't leave the void that occurs with white glue. We spoke about the wood shrinking, it expands too and I've seen cues with the tips still glued to the tenon but not touching the ferrule material. This simply doesn't happen with the capped style.
Mike
www.customcuemaker.com
Click to expand...


True, they do stay on most of the time, and would break before coming loose. Even some that come loose between faces, seem to be from the white glue, and have epoxy on the threads atleast. I've seen It built up pretty thick on threads in the capped, very strong bond there. Those are easy to fix if the gap is not bad. The sound from those are probably clicking between faces. Possible to fill, but glue line may show unless you white glue.


I agree with joey also that The larger shoulder at the weak part is a good alternative with threads.

I just do It the way the customer wants, Threaded uncapped, capped threaded, does'nt make a difference to me, but if not specified Ill keep It the way It was, and what they are used to shooting with. Seems to keep them happy that way.

as far as My preference, threaded or slip tenon will work as long as not capped. The slip tenon is easier to me, and altough I don't get the clicking mentioned, if I did, would be easy to fix It myself, one of the benifits of owning a lathe. I do have customers bring them to me where the tenon looked as if it shrinked. The epoxy I like is slow setting, and very slightly elastic, but I do have a quick cure that I like when in a rush. I also epoxy between faces. I've got one on a personal cue with about 5 years of breaking on It and still holding up, but only time will tell.

I see alot come loose from being super glued more then anything.

You guys think how dense the wood in the shaft is, would make a difference in the amount of shrinkage? They do expand too, I get them that are sanded below the ferrule which is expected as wood sands faster then the ferrule, but I have had them over too. Maybe It gets compressed, but wood does move as we know, so I am sure that's going to occur, Correct?

Mike, I get alot of house cues Like you mentioned with the ferrule below the tenon face, and the tip up there on display LOL. You ever get any that are hard to face because the tenon raises before you get the tip on? I have had some that seemed kind of sappy or gummy that did that really bad. I have to go in and undercut the tenon face without hitting the ferrule several times.

Good point sheldon, does'nt really matter which method you use, It's how good the job was done, and the customers preference. I have seen ferrules that looked like they flat out expanded, so believe that happens also, but as above, I have seen the tenon do it too. Mostly in house cues though. I have had as many as 20-30 of them at a time to do, the same way, and they kept coming in like that. They were decent quality cues that did this. I thought it was from abuse at first until I watched it practically happen in front of My eyes LOL. Blew My mind it could happen that quick.

I appologise if the post was too long guys, this stuff is just of interest to me.

Greg
 
Last edited:
JoeyInCali said:
Arnie, why not leave a shoulder at the bottom of the threaded tenon?
.313 by .200" long, and keep the rest at .282 and thread them?
Would the gap below the cap matter if slow setting epoxy was used?
They become harder than wood itself.
Click to expand...

You could do that but a part is only as strong as its weakest point. The diameter at the bottom of the threads is even smaller than .282.
 
I don't think cuemakers use a capped ferrule because it's "easier" for them at all. There's a strength issue here. Uncapped ferrules depending on the material can crack. I make all of my ferrules in house and do a few things to insure that the tenon is flush against the cap so I'm not relying on epoxy to fill any voids.

Mark Bear
 
Fullsplice said:
I don't think cuemakers use a capped ferrule because it's "easier" for them at all. There's a strength issue here. Uncapped ferrules depending on the material can crack. I make all of my ferrules in house and do a few things to insure that the tenon is flush against the cap so I'm not relying on epoxy to fill any voids.

Mark Bear
Click to expand...

I do the same thing. I leave between .005" and .010" between the end of the tennon and the bottom of the mortise in the ferrule. I make my final passes with a boring bar, which besides giving me a truly round hole, allows me to make the bottom of the hole flat. The top of the tennon is also flat, with a slight chamfer on its edges. The two flat surfaces are now only .005" to .010" apart, which I feel leaves enough room for glue, but not too much where a void could occur. I leave the tennon long at first, then measure the depth of the hole in the ferrule, and cut the tennon to a hair longer than that. Then I test fit the ferrule a few times and re-face the end of the tennon so it is exactly right.

I also face the end of the ferrule that goes agains the shaft's shoulder during the same holding setup. This ensures that that face will be perpendicular to the hole. This helps prevent the ferrule from having an uneven width glue line along it circumference.

Nick
 
Well, there is one thing to consider,
Not everybody that uses a threaded and capped ferrule, uses the same size threaded tenon.

Thanks,

Jon
 
What I do with my personal cues is bore out the ferrule for a snug fit on the tenon. Score the tenon and inner ferrule and epoxy them to a tight fit. Hits good for me and haven't experienced any falling off. No slack... but customers prefer the threaded thing on their cues so I give them what they think is best for them.

Hadj
 
Another thing to consider.
Not all capped ferrules have a gap between the cap and top of tenon.
And some shoulders are longer than others.
 
BiG_JoN said:
Another thing to consider.
Not all capped ferrules have a gap between the cap and top of tenon.
And some shoulders are longer than others.
Click to expand...
Some crush the tenon with dull aluminum compression die too.
 
It's funny , in Australia we see mostly snooker cues with brass ferrules , some threaded but traditionally not . Only recently are we seeing capped ferrules from other material such as ABS , PVC and CANVAS PHENOLIC .
In the old days a brass ferrule would be smacked on the tenon hard with a mallet , no glue at all quite often .

Personally all my ferrules whether capped or uncapped are fitted and glued with either epoxy or gap filling cyanoacrylate (some plastics don't stick well with epoxy) I have no threads and no problems , and you have to remember were using much thinner tips (8.5mm to 10mm usually) .

Anyone tried making an external tenon on the ferrules and drilling out the shaft , this should work well and stop the problem with broken tenons , the ferrule height could be kept shorter too ?

... the point is , whatever works for you as far as sticking them on goes . As far as performance goes , a softer hit combined with as light as possible of a material seems to give less throw fairly consistently . Basically , the same theory Predator goes by , reduce the weight in the tip end of the shaft !
 
lignum said:
Anyone tried making an external tenon on the ferrules and drilling out the shaft , this should work well and stop the problem with broken tenons , the ferrule height could be kept shorter too ?
Click to expand...

...never given it a thought, until now,,,next tenon I replace on one of my housecues will be ferrule and tenon cut together.

thanks for the suggestion, time will tell how well it does !
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top