CB last before shooting

[West Point 1987]

I tried this a couple of years ago...saw an immediate improvement/benefit; but that was temporary. Why? Well, when I first gave it a try, my alignment was good...but after a couple of days/weeks of looking at the CB as my tip hit it my alignment went to crap. That's the problem with CB last for me...once I stopped looking at the OB to see the connection between it, the pocket and my stickline, I was hitting the CB great, but was aligned incorrectly to the OB. You have to have that feedback from the point you're over the shot to the contact between CB and OB, back to your line through the CB. It ALL matters, and looking CB last (for me) disconnects me from the OB and my line goes down the tubes. Once I'm lined up correctly, I don't even see the CB...I look at it at my set/pause phase to verify my line (TOI or BHE off that line) and then I'm looking at the contact point on the OB (yes, I can see it) and stroking through the CB to the contact point with my ferule.

 

[Ralph Kramden]

I tried this a couple of years ago...saw an immediate improvement/benefit; but that was temporary. Why? Well, when I first gave it a try, my alignment was good...but after a couple of days/weeks of looking at the CB as my tip hit it my alignment went to crap. That's the problem with CB last for me...once I stopped looking at the OB to see the connection between it, the pocket and my stickline, I was hitting the CB great, but was aligned incorrectly to the OB. You have to have that feedback from the point you're over the shot to the contact between CB and OB, back to your line through the CB. It ALL matters, and looking CB last (for me) disconnects me from the OB and my line goes down the tubes. Once I'm lined up correctly, I don't even see the CB...I look at it at my set/pause phase to verify my line (TOI or BHE off that line) and then I'm looking at the contact point on the OB (yes, I can see it) and stroking through the CB to the contact point with my ferule.

Point well taken Point.. I got your point. :thumbup:

I also look at the OB last. If someone says he's playing better looking at the CB last, why not?
However, when someone actually aims it's about the concentration to accurately make a shot.

 

[bigskyblue]

CB last with CTE is "Brilliant"

Just to clarify my position.

There is no specific eye pattern requirement for CTE. It's ok to look at the OB or the CB last. In other words any typical eye pattern is ok.

It is a matter of choice as to how one splits their time between the CB and the OB.

Stan Shuffett

I've found that CB last shooting works exceptionally well with CTE aiming and banking.
If you don't believe it, take a look at this demonstration by Stan "The Man" Shuffett.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJTJh05FEKw

Cheers mate,

 

[stan shuffett]

I've found that CB last shooting works exceptionally well with CTE aiming and banking.
If you don't believe it, take a look at this demonstration by Stan "The Man" Shuffett.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJTJh05FEKw

Cheers mate,

Thanks,

I can play very well looking at the CB last. I can also play very without ever directly viewing the OB again once I begin my sweep.

Ultimately, it's important to split your focus time between the CB and OB in some manner.

My strongest eye pattern has me looking at the OB last. I am wired in that I must see the CB OB collision for my best play.

Stan Shuffett

 

[CJ Wiley]

his completes the "final destination," (in your mind) and gives you the feedback

CJ - The examples of balls in other sports were used because each ball has to be hit or kicked near center.

Just as in pool each ball in any sport can purposely be made to deviate from the direction it was contacted.

Pros can make a golf ball fade or draw... but if they it hit too far off it's center it had better know how to swim.

Using a TOI, the CB deviates from the true direction it was actually hit. Does it matter if it was looked at last?

Yes, it does matter and I'm let you in on a little secret. IT"S VITAL to know what part of the pocket the object ball is hitting and I it's much easier if I look at the object ball to do it.

That feedback, I believe, is what separates me (and other champion players) from others who do not use this powerful technique. If I don't hit the center of the pocket (in most cases) I will immediately calibrate my stroke slightly on the next shot. This keeps me from "drifting" off in my alignment or stroke and eventually start missing the pocket entirely.

You will see even advanced players start a match "on fire," making everything they shoot and looking like they can do it forever......then they miss. After that they look like a different player and start wobbling shots that barely go in. At that point their confidence leaves them and they are fortunate if they get it back that day.

This is not because of that one shot, it's because, in my opinion they started "drifting" and didn't "real eyes" it earlier in the match. Even though they continued to make the shots earlier, they were starting to under-cut (typically) and then when the pressure of winning arose they flat out dogged it.

If I start under-cutting shots I simply apply more of the "Touch of Inside" (TOI) and the object ball will automatically cut more on the next shot....and subsequent shots.

So I don't recommend watching the object ball last because it matters on pocketing the ball, I strongly recommend watching the object ball go into the pocket because this completes the "final destination," (in your mind) and gives you the feedback to apply to your very next shot. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[DeadStick]

Saccadic masking might be a reason for looking at the object ball last

I've experimented with a CB-last eye pattern, but always have best results with OB-last.

In my opinion, CB-last robs the shooter's brain of vital feedback data: a clear picture of the cue ball's path (including deflection and swerve), and most importantly, a clear picture of the "moment of truth," contact with the OB. Why? I believe it's due to saccadic masking, where the brain "selectively blocks visual processing during eye movements in such a way that neither the motion of the eye (and subsequent motion blur of the image) nor the gap in visual perception is noticeable to the viewer."

In other words, as our eyes rapidly track from CB up to OB immediately post-tip contact, our vision goes effectively blank, and we may have trouble getting a "lock" on the OB prior to CB contact with it. The firmer (faster) the shot, the more difficultly we'll have in seeing the CB roll path and contact... and if that data is not made available to our brain, our subconscious cannot learn from each shot. At most shot speeds, it's literally impossible for our eyes to lock on the CB and track it in motion, and our attempt to lock on the OB position to see CB-OB contact will either be late or inaccurate.

In summary: Locking on the OB last gives us the best "quiet eyes" position from which to learn from the most important aspects of our shot – the initial track of the CB, any swerve along the way to the OB, the exact position and spin of the CB at contact with the OB, and the resultant path of the OB.

Personally, to maximize the feedback from every shot, I try to observe the fractional overlay of the two balls at contact (and notice if it matched with my aim line and estimate of deflection and swerve), then observe the spin-induced or cut-induced throw (if any) of the OB, then of course observe the OB path to the pocket or other aim-point. When I really bear down and observe these fine details, and stay down on each shot absorbing them until the balls stop rolling, I find myself in "the zone" and my pocketing percentage and position play are noticeably improved.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I've experimented with a CB-last eye pattern, but always have best results with OB-last.

In my opinion, CB-last robs the shooter's brain of vital feedback data: a clear picture of the cue ball's path (including deflection and swerve), and most importantly, a clear picture of the "moment of truth," contact with the OB. Why? I believe it's due to saccadic masking, where the brain "selectively blocks visual processing during eye movements in such a way that neither the motion of the eye (and subsequent motion blur of the image) nor the gap in visual perception is noticeable to the viewer."

In other words, as our eyes rapidly track from CB up to OB immediately post-tip contact, our vision goes effectively blank, and we may have trouble getting a "lock" on the OB prior to CB contact with it. The firmer (faster) the shot, the more difficultly we'll have in seeing the CB roll path and contact... and if that data is not made available to our brain, our subconscious cannot learn from each shot. At most shot speeds, it's literally impossible for our eyes to lock on the CB and track it in motion, and our attempt to lock on the OB position to see CB-OB contact will either be late or inaccurate.

In summary: Locking on the OB last gives us the best "quiet eyes" position from which to learn from the most important aspects of our shot – the initial track of the CB, any swerve along the way to the OB, the exact position and spin of the CB at contact with the OB, and the resultant path of the OB.

Personally, to maximize the feedback from every shot, I try to observe the fractional overlay of the two balls at contact (and notice if it matched with my aim line and estimate of deflection and swerve), then observe the spin-induced or cut-induced throw (if any) of the OB, then of course observe the OB path to the pocket or other aim-point. When I really bear down and observe these fine details, and stay down on each shot absorbing them until the balls stop rolling, I find myself in "the zone" and my pocketing percentage and position play are noticeably improved.

DeadStick,

You've given a good description of someone playing with hitting off center on the cue ball for the effects of the spin.

I did what you speak of for 46 years (& still do when using english) but since using TOI I have gravitated to CB 'last' most of the time due to the precise nature of having to hit with just the touch of inside.

For all the reasons mentioned, is why I have said that I feel it very much depends on what style of play one is employing that might dictate what last would have the best advantage. It might even come down to the type of shot.

I trust my mind immensely. For that reason I try to not give any real thought as to what my eyes do, except for those certain very much out of the ordinary shots.

I believe if one really & truly focuses on the shot at hand the mind will control what is best for the eyes & everything else to do.

It's easy for us to discuss things here in hind sight so to speak, but when actually playing I want as little conscious thought as possible.

I recently started playing on a 3 & 7/8 inch 9' diamond & was rattling a certain shot because my subconscious was favoring the percentage side of the long rail side of the pocket. It absolutely will not go on this table. So...I have to consciously make myself to shoot the shot differently. In doing so I am hitting the short rail point a percentage of the time. The point being that my subconscious shoots better than my conscious.

That table has turned what was an extremely high percentage shot into about a 70/30 proposition, for now, at least until my subconscious can get on board with the new conditions.

The point is that I would just trust my eye pattern & not be too focused on what one does consciously regarding it.

I know many of the mechanical people will disagree & say that one needs consistency. I would agree if every shot was exactly the same, but they are not the same.

I'd rather trust my mind than a contrived mechanical method.

This spiel is not so much directed at you, but I agree with you as to what & why I was doing what you say when shooting with english. But...it has naturally changed as my style of play has changed with no conscious thought or decision to change on my part.

Like CJ says the Game is the Teacher. Well in this case the Style of Play can be the Teacher. That is if one can keep one's brain out of the way & just let The Teacher Teach.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

PS And we need to define "last'. Is it when the stroke begins or is it at the actual contact. Are there two 'lasts'?

 

[scottjen26]

I answered in the other section, but now I see the question here as well so will comment based on these replies...

I look at the CB last - there, I admitted it... - and play pretty well. BUT, I'm just using one of the alternative eye patterns - that is, I look at the CB last, but during the stroke (probably just before or at the farthest point of the backswing), my eyes shift up to the OB.

I don't know why - I'm self taught, and bowled and played tennis and golf at a pretty high level - and I guess that stick/racquet/club/ball connection was ingrained. I looked at what I was hitting (the cue ball), not what I was aiming at (the pins, the hole in the green, over the net, etc.).

However, along the way I also must have figured out that the CB/OB relationship and connection was important, and seeing the results of the shot was important for fine tuning and adjusting purposes, to constantly be feeding our computer for future reference.

I've tried looking up at the OB last, and just allowing the CB to get in the way, it just takes a lot of conscious effort. Funny, because at the moment of impact I'm doing exactly that, but because of the last look at the CB it's imprinted enough in my eyes I guess to "feel" like I'm still seeing it. On certain shots, especially longer shots, I try harder to look at the OB before pulling the trigger, it helps avoid my head lifting with my eyes when the OB is so far away. I guess when I get everything else fixed maybe I'll go back to working on that.

Anyway, just my two cents. I don't know of any top player who maintains focus on the CB throughout the stroke, but there are definitely some like me who look at the CB last and then transition their eyes up to the OB at the pause in the backstroke or at some other point in the stroke. That connection is important, the feedback is important, but ultimately if you are lined up correctly it in a pure stroking sense with good fundamentals it doesn't matter that much, the ball should go where intended even with our eyes closed - or a curtain over the table...

Scott

 

[AtLarge]

... there are definitely some like me who look at the CB last and then transition their eyes up to the OB at the pause in the backstroke or at some other point in the stroke. ...

I'd call that OB last, Scott -- where the eyes are looking when the tip strikes the CB.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I would certainly agree

I'd call that OB last, Scott -- where the eyes are looking when the tip strikes the CB.

I would certainly agree with you on that one "AtLarge".

 

[rubell]

I guess it depends on a person. Before I really needed to look at the object ball but then CJ Wiley made me realize. If my stroke is consistent why shall I worry about the object ball? I mean if I know which direction to shoot and to what point to shoot and the object ball will be gone, and if my stroke is consistent, I better be concentrated on controlling my cue ball. If not, I better work on my stroke consistency.

However, I suspect people have different visions. Billiards is a funny thing, one needs to be aware of objects located at different distances, near-sight, middle-sight and far-sight (on long tables). Even getting eyeglasses is difficult for the pool table because of this.

So, probably it makes sense to choose what works best for a person. In my case I understand, if I cannot shoot consistently, nothing will help me to improve my game.

Update: I've made few experiments with a camera and found that at the moment right before hitting the CB I raise my eyes to see where the OB goes. So, even if I am concentrated on the CB, technically I do not look at the CB last. I simply do what feels natural for me and not realize that I move my eyes.

 

[CJ Wiley]

It's faulty "common knowledge" that the object all is the target

Update: I've made few experiments with a camera and found that at the moment right before hitting the CB I raise my eyes to see where the OB goes. So, even if I am concentrated on the CB, technically I do not look at the CB last. I simply do what feels natural for me and not realize that I move my eyes.

It's about connection at that point and you want to be connected to the pocket. The way to do this is to watch the object ball go into a particular part of the pocket. This requires the last look to be on the cue ball or you will not be able to pick up (visually) the object ball hit the most important target.....the pocket.

It's faulty "common knowledge" that the object all is the target, however, the pocket is actually the target....the object ball is just what's used to create the angle using the cue ball. The primary target is the cue ball and it must be contacted precisely by the TIP....then the object all is the secondary target and the final, most important target is the pocket.

I recommend discovering the way to see where you're hitting the final target or there's no way to receive the available (essential) feedback to keep from missing. www.cjwiley.com


'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[scottjen26]

Update: I've made few experiments with a camera and found that at the moment right before hitting the CB I raise my eyes to see where the OB goes. So, even if I am concentrated on the CB, technically I do not look at the CB last. I simply do what feels natural for me and not realize that I move my eyes.

Which is what I said I found out as well just a few posts prior to this...

I was also a little surprised to see that, but I feel it's more common with "cue-ball lasters" than actually looking at the cue ball impact point the entire time. It's similar in other sports where people feel they are looking at the point of impact but because of the speed of the action they are actually looking somewhere else.

But it's all about comfort and perception, and if you think you are looking at the CB last and that helps you with the shot vs. deliberately looking up at the OB before pulling the trigger, then keep doing it. Just be aware on longer shots that your eye movement doesn't pull your head up as well.
Scott

 

[fathomblue]

I look at the CB last 100% of the time.

I never, ever knew there was even another way, till the subject was brought up on this board a few years ago. Then I started asking around locally and quickly realized that I was the only player that did it the "CB last" way. Go figure. No one taught me how to play when I was young. I just picked up a cue and played.

Now, because of CJ, I'm much more conscious of immediately looking up to see which part of the pocket the OB goes in, so I can calibrate myself.

But, I can say with pretty good certainty that I don't take my eye off the CB till it's gone. I stare at it like a laser and concentrate on the CB's contact point AND the top of my tip (for most shots.....and the bottom of my tip for others, but that's another topic).

If I start missing many shots, I usually realize that I'm not focusing on the CB enough and letting my head pop up too quickly. As soon as I "laser" back in on that facet of my game, things stabilize and go back to normal.

My best friend has argued the whole "CB last vs. OB last" thing for the past 3 years, as he's on the other side of it. Just a few weeks ago, he began experimenting doing it "my way" and needless to say, he was shooting pretty well. He grudgingly admitted that there might be something to it and then never said another word about it. I just let it go, because I knew it was hard for him to admit it. Now, whether he's still doing it that way or not, I don't know.

I just know that once I establish the relationship between the CB-OB-pocket/intended target in my PSR.....then get my correct body alignment and footwork in the right spot.....when I drop down and slide in, I give the OB a few long courtesy looks in my "personal eye pattern"........then it's full-on focus regarding the CB. The OB doesn't exist to me anymore till AFTER tip contact. I literally watch where I'm hitting the CB. Then it's full-on focus to see what part of the pocket I'm hitting.

Obviously you can do it either way and both have produced champions.

 

[Vahmurka]

real target



this comes from one of the greatest cueists of our era who won a World Championship 15 times.


"One could play equally well with one's eyes shut" - I think Stan Shuffett proved that one doesn't need to see the pocket at all.

...imagine you throw a tennis ball off a tree so that it bounces towards a... say, a window. Which one is your real target, a window or a spot on a tree you are supposed to hit? :scratchhead:

Obviously you can do it either way and both have produced champions.

:yes:
funny thing, those who prefer CB last say that either way is acceptable and works. Those who look at OB last claim that CB last is totally wrong.