Centre ball is my preference

[Slasher]

More than just center ball but accuracy on the CB is fundamental to playing good pool. I have watched up close hundreds of players of all levels over the years and the one thing that always stands out is the vast majority of league level and below players struggle with this aspect.

It's nice to be able to strike a good center ball and affords you great accuracy particularly on long balls and since I am primarily a snooker player I am referring to 6ft or more.

It is a myth to assume snooker players don't spin the ball, a little off center striking is often employed and even extreme spin off of the real long balls in order to return to balk or generate speed to get round the table.

The key is knowing where your striking the ball, this allows your brain to make the necessary corrections for the throw and on napped cloth over distance this can be considerable, it's the unintended spin that's the killer as this makes the reaction unpredictable.

And the key to this accurate striking is timing, timing and paying close attention to taking the last look at where you are addressing the CB before finishing the stroke.

There have been many techniques discussed on here recently about how this is accomplished but in my mind these are just ways of compensating for cueing and CB striking errors and I am sorry to say most pool players even pros get a fail on this, only a handful manage push the cue through straight.

Cueing straight through the ball is very difficult and takes and immense amount of work and refined technique, but the main thing is knowing where you striking whitey.

 

[vapoolplayer]

.................

 

[Pathetic Shark]

It is a myth to assume snooker players don't spin the ball, a little off center striking is often employed and even extreme spin off of the real long balls in order to return to balk or generate speed to get round the table.

The key is knowing where your striking the ball, this allows your brain to make the necessary corrections for the throw and on napped cloth over distance this can be considerable, it's the unintended spin that's the killer as this makes the reaction unpredictable.

Very true. A long shot with screw and bottom, for instance, will deflect slightly at contact, swerve quite a bit en route, and throw on contact with the OB. It's simply not possible to calculate these things in unison. You just play them until you feel them. It's natural selection - repetition leads to adaptation.

Your subconscious is the teacher. Feel is the pupil (so to speak).

Incidentally, I don't know if you saw any of the beeb's recent coverage of the Welsh Open, but the commentators were talking about how Stuart Bingham had gone from also-ran to champion. I think it was Terry Griffiths who said he'd achieved it by changing from playing with 'helping' side, to playing primarily with centre ball. There was a natural tendency for snooker players to play with side when they played on older, thicker clothes - Griffiths said it is impossible to play in such a way now, which is why all the successful players are the ones that have adapted to centre ball striking. He said it took Bingham years to adapt to this change. Centre ball striking is HARD.

Once again, pool is massively behind the curve.

 

[Stretch]

More than just center ball but accuracy on the CB is fundamental to playing good pool. I have watched up close hundreds of players of all levels over the years and the one thing that always stands out is the vast majority of league level and below players struggle with this aspect.

It's nice to be able to strike a good center ball and affords you great accuracy particularly on long balls and since I am primarily a snooker player I am referring to 6ft or more.

It is a myth to assume snooker players don't spin the ball, a little off center striking is often employed and even extreme spin off of the real long balls in order to return to balk or generate speed to get round the table.

The key is knowing where your striking the ball, this allows your brain to make the necessary corrections for the throw and on napped cloth over distance this can be considerable, it's the unintended spin that's the killer as this makes the reaction unpredictable.

And the key to this accurate striking is timing, timing and paying close attention to taking the last look at where you are addressing the CB before finishing the stroke.

There have been many techniques discussed on here recently about how this is accomplished but in my mind these are just ways of compensating for cueing and CB striking errors and I am sorry to say most pool players even pros get a fail on this, only a handful manage push the cue through straight.

Cueing straight through the ball is very difficult and takes and immense amount of work and refined technique, but the main thing is knowing where you striking whitey.

Great post Slasher. While everyone is discussing the joy of center ball i thought i'd throw in a great drill for grooving it in. I just line the balls up between the side pockets and shoot down dead on stop shots to the corners. The point is not so much that you perform the stop shot, it is to observe the cue ball to see if it is spinning one way or the other. The drill is to stop the cue ball with no spin. Devilish hard to do. Get that down and you have found dead center stroke. St

 

[naji]

Very true. A long shot with screw and bottom, for instance, will deflect slightly at contact, swerve quite a bit en route, and throw on contact with the OB. It's simply not possible to calculate these things in unison. You just play them until you feel them. It's natural selection - repetition leads to adaptation.

Your subconscious is the teacher. Feel is the pupil (so to speak).

Incidentally, I don't know if you saw any of the beeb's recent coverage of the Welsh Open, but the commentators were talking about how Stuart Bingham had gone from also-ran to champion. I think it was Terry Griffiths who said he'd achieved it by changing from playing with 'helping' side, to playing primarily with centre ball. There was a natural tendency for snooker players to play with side when they played on older, thicker clothes - Griffiths said it is impossible to play in such a way now, which is why all the successful players are the ones that have adapted to centre ball striking. He said it took Bingham years to adapt to this change. Centre ball striking is HARD.

Once again, pool is massively behind the curve.

You are wrong here, screw, bottom, or top, or screw in general will not effect direction of OB unless CB is sliding at time of contact or near stun situations or CB hit very very softly- the OB will pick the opposite english from CB though say if you banking or to help pocket the ball-big difference not many people know it - hope you are in agreement; on the other hand, screw will change the direction of CB if your bridge hand is shorter than pivot point so you should change your aim accordingly- you only use feel on too much elevation shots, but not on 98% of shots

 

[Slasher]

Because pool is different from snooker on many levels. The pockets react much different than on a pool table.

I don't know about you but in my world empty space is empty space and that's all a pocket is.
Sure on some trappy tables the knuckle can accept a ball a little better with english but by and large a hole is a hole and it's simply a matter of accuracy.

Theres a reason why the likes of Alison and Kelly blitzed the womens pool world or why Stuart Pettman came along a stunned the field at 14.1 on a tight 10 footer and the phenomenal shot making of Chris Melling that had Mike D shaking his head at Mosconi,
they did it with superior fundamentals and accuracy.

Seems everyone on here is always looking for a gimmick or system to short cut hard work and just end up complicating what is essentially a very simple mechanical process.

Simplify, train, refine, and you will get better faster.

 

[naji]

I don't know about you but in my world empty space is empty space and that's all a pocket is.
Sure on some trappy tables the knuckle can accept a ball a little better with english but by and large a hole is a hole and it's simply a matter of accuracy.

Theres a reason why the likes of Alison and Kelly blitzed the womens pool world or why Stuart Pettman came along a stunned the field at 14.1 on a tight 10 footer and the phenomenal shot making of Chris Melling that had Mike D shaking his head at Mosconi,
they did it with superior fundamentals and accuracy.

Seems everyone on here is always looking for a gimmick or system to short cut hard work and just end up complicating what is essentially a very simple mechanical process.

Simplify, train, refine, and you will get better faster.

I played snooker for almost 5 years before coming to the us, it been 30 years since, i agree with you 100% , no short cut for hard work aim focus and smooth stroke all it takes. Sure for position requirements it is different, but if one plans on not using english his plan will be good, and rarely use english.

 

[bbb]

this device is great for teaching you vertical axis striking
a joe tucker product
http://www.joetucker.net/store/stroke_trainer.htm

i took a lesson once with a pro who told me he used to gamble and win
playing 9 ball where he had to use the stroke trainer for all of his shots
.::thumbup:
the joys of vertical axis

 

[sluan]

Any quick fix short of fundamental technique;
Obsession with cue bling;
The endless complaining about problems originating from a lack of a governing body while steadfastly refusing to support the creation of a governing body;
and
The refusal to understand that snooker can be played on a 9 ft. table and that not having a 12 ft table is not reason to avoid the superior game.

Even though I play mostly pool not snooker, have to say, I found these points enlightening. Hence my very first post on AZB.

Oh to be on track of this CB topic, I'd say I do believe in one should only use CB hits whenever possible, in order to avoid errors introduced by unnecessary CB spin.

 

[flash5153]

I have only scanned through these post. But nobody can hit ,,just,,,,center ball. It's impossible to get through a rack that way. But I consider ,,center ball, and a slight bit bit of spin,,as the same. Or even ,,a whole lot of spin/english!!!
It's all based on center ball hit,. Now a days,,with all these different systems coming out,,,it's hard to explain what the heck your doing to run a rack!!!

English or spin,,,,,will never leave the table!!! Never!!! Even if you give it another name!! LMAO

 

[allanpsand]

Basically, this is the CB shooting rule of thumb.

Vertical center line, 90+ percent of the time.

Side spin only when the OB is close to the pocket.

 

[ChopStick]

Once again, pool is massively behind the curve.

OK. What curve is that?

 

[CJ Wiley]

When we are "at choice," we CHOOSE to hit our best, most controllable shot

This is what Dale stated:
Quote:
Part of what originally Posted by pdcue

To have a complete game, you need to master all types of spin and
strokes.

English said:

Dale,

Well Stated,

Regards,


I said, we need a National Curriculum to teach everyone everything, and then they are on their own, kinda agreeing to Dale's last statement.

Also, you said in your respond to my reply, the magic worlds, i quote, what i think you meant, for pocketing accuracy in snooker game one must avoid all reasons to have OB go to an unintended part of pocket, other wise it is a missed ball, and that is using english!! why not apply same no english principle to pool!!
Agree 100% if english is not needed for position one should never use it. OK, CJ i know!!

I use english just about every time I hit the cue ball, it's just in a very controlled fashion. I control the deflection, which is hopeless trying to hit "center ball". I've never seen a champion or played a champion player that consistently hits or tries to hit the center of the cue ball.

Every game from golf, tennis, baseball, bowling, ping pong, use spin to create zones and increase margin of error, why wouldn't pool be the same with the exception of adding deflection into the equation (since pool is played on cloth). Pool, after all, is just a miniature version of these games.
If you don't believe me, watch this LINK, and let Earl Strickland tell you the same thing POOL's A MINIATURE VERSION OF OTHER GAMES. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmJFy9pMeYg

If you don't understand my techniques it's understandable, you're only read a few thousand posts of mine. All of us learn at our own speed. To think I can't hit any english I want is ludicrous, there's no way you can become the #1 player in the world (even for a limited time) and not be able to do anything you want with your cue ball (when it's needed only).

I'm just like any pro golfer or tennis player, we can hit ANY SPEED OR SPIN, we just don't do it unless we have to. When we are "at choice," we CHOOSE to hit our best, most controllable shot, this is just common sense to us.....why isn't it to you may I ask?

Finding an accomplished player that consistently uses center ball is like trying to find Big Foot, if you keep trying I"m sure he'll show up. :groucho:

I'm joking of course.....or am I? :yeah:

 

[vapoolplayer]

.................

 

[Pathetic Shark]

You are wrong here, screw, bottom, or top, or screw in general will not effect direction of OB unless CB is sliding at time of contact or near stun situations or CB hit very very softly- the OB will pick the opposite english from CB though say if you banking or to help pocket the ball-big difference not many people know it - hope you are in agreement; on the other hand, screw will change the direction of CB if your bridge hand is shorter than pivot point so you should change your aim accordingly- you only use feel on too much elevation shots, but not on 98% of shots

Spotter's Badge for Naji. Sorry, I meant to say screw and side (English), not screw and bottom (which are the same thing). The point being, if hit on the right side, the CB will deflect left, swerve right and throw the OB left, which is rather difficult to read, obviously, especially over long distance shots. IMO it is better to forget trying to understand the science and just play it by feel until it sticks in the subconscious.

The ability to learn shots is important - and not as easy as just remembering them. Eliminating the need for conscious thought is helpful.

 

[CJ Wiley]

determining factors

Are you saying a pool table pocket won't accept a shot easier than a snooker table pocket? A pocket is far from just "empty space."

Sure, center pocket is center pocket, but balls still fall when they hit parts of the pocket. Pool tables play much easier than snooker tables and thus side spin can be used more liberally in pool.

Do you disagree?

I agree - we played on a table tonight where you can't make the ball in a certain corner pocket and draw it to the other end of the table when the OB is close to a rail. The facings, the shelf, the angle of the opening to the back are determining factors.....even the material of the shims make a difference.

 

[fathomblue]

your paragraph and im not sure whether justin or cj wrote it has given me the best picture of toi.thank you
for awhile it seemed to me icbw cj said you dont hit the ball far enough off vertical to get deflection. that made no scence to me.
you state there is a degree of deflection. makes more sence
my previous post and in responce to english who u assume was refferring to me
cj is unquestionably a great player and his "system" surely works for him and for many others.

i do have one comment on your statement about acceptance spin
i think you are incorrect in your assumption
when you cut a ball to the left
the collision with the cue ball will put right spin on it not left
left hand english on the cue ball would add MORE right hand spin to the object ball
giving it nonacceptance spin as it hit the right pocket facing favoring it jawing not favoring it going in
you could mitigate against the collision induced spin to some degree with more than a touch of OUTSIDE englishsorry for the digression

keep on gentlemen

Are you sure?

In my example, if I'm hitting with TOI.....which is a touch of inside on the left side of the CB.....as I strike it, the CB ever-so-slightly spins/floats toward the right on it's axis. And I say slightly, as the whole point of TOI is to float the CB and not truly spin it around the table. But, there's a hint of spin, let's say.

Anyway, as it's spinning to the right, when it contacts the OB, it creates the slight "gearing" effect, which causes the OB to slightly spin to the left. So, if the OB bumps the nearest rail on the way in and then caroms into the opposite pocket facing (or just hits that pocket facing directly, if you overcut it)......then that left hand spin sends it into the pocket.

All of the above is moot, of course, if you just hit it into the 1st diamond and completely miss the shot, as some of us are prone to do. :grin-square:

I believe I have it correct, but if you can get to a table and set up some balls and see what I'm talking about............well, if I'm absolutely wrong, let me know.

Anyone else care to comment on that? I've looked at it on the table several times and I'm convinced myself that it's doing that, but I human and occasionally wrong. I'm also not afraid to admit when I am.

P.S. And that original paragraph was from me, Justin Wray. CJ was just quoting me. I'm trying my hardest to learn his method and it's working for me. So, I try to help out others that are interested when I can.

 

[naji]

Are you sure?

In my example, if I'm hitting with TOI.....which is a touch of inside on the left side of the CB.....as I strike it, the CB ever-so-slightly spins/floats toward the right on it's axis. And I say slightly, as the whole point of TOI is to float the CB and not truly spin it around the table. But, there's a hint of spin, let's say.

Anyway, as it's spinning to the right, when it contacts the OB, it creates the slight "gearing" effect, which causes the OB to slightly spin to the left. So, if the OB bumps the nearest rail on the way in and then caroms into the opposite pocket facing (or just hits that pocket facing directly, if you overcut it)......then that left hand spin sends it into the pocket.

All of the above is moot, of course, if you just hit it into the 1st diamond and completely miss the shot, as some of us are prone to do. :grin-square:

I believe I have it correct, but if you can get to a table and set up some balls and see what I'm talking about............well, if I'm absolutely wrong, let me know.

Anyone else care to comment on that? I've looked at it on the table several times and I'm convinced myself that it's doing that, but I human and occasionally wrong. I'm also not afraid to admit when I am.

P.S. And that original paragraph was from me, Justin Wray. CJ was just quoting me. I'm trying my hardest to learn his method and it's working for me. So, I try to help out others that are interested when I can.

OB spins for three reasons, one due to collusion induced spin (CIS), and spin from CB induced spin lets call it CBIS, and due to impacting rail at angel (large a bit) will call it RIS.


When you cut a ball spin gets put on OB but it is dependent on cut angle and speed usually does not take much of CB spin to cancel it; this is always canceled using inside, CJ system TOI will take care of this CIS and also cancels the spin that the CB get after collision. This CIS is not much and will not help pocket a ball much unless OB near a pocket and very fast shot..fair!!

Now there is the CBIS, this is naturally apply opposite spin on OB especially when CB is in stun mode; now this CBIS is a lot and actually kill the CIS and reverse it at times; so in order to spin a ball into pocket OB must have inside on it; therefore, CB must have outside to further help spin the ball into pocket, or what Buddy call it helping english. Sure if pockets are big no problem, but if tight then that would certainly help when balls near rail.

Hope that helps..

For RIS will keep for another post.

 

[duckie]

First, there is no way to increase the margin of error for a shot. The margin of error for any shot is always determined by the pocket size, ball size, and distance and angle of the OB to the pocket. There is no method, or system that can change this.

Second, lest consider in details and dynamics of a few of the games that are "like" pool.

Ping Pong- yes, played on a table with a net, yes there is a ball (only one), yes spin is used, and yes there are two players. The purpose is to return the ball in such a manner as to force a error on the other players apart that results in a failed returned thereby earning you one point. The use why spin is used so much in ping pong. Plus the paddle is bigger then the ball in ping pong and more of a swing than stroke is used in ping pong which all comes into play on how spin is applied to the ball. Not to forget that you are hitting a moving ball that has to be returned to the other side, hit the table and be such that the other player misses his return shot. This back and forth goes on until one misses their return shot. There is no pocket for the ping pong ball to go in. There is no position play. No position the ping pong ball for your next return cause you don't know what that return will be since another person is doing the returning.

Tennis is very similar in the overall goal of making the other player miss there return.

Bowling-yes has a ball, yes has spin. The purpose is to use one ball of a certain weight to knock over 10 pins of a certain weight. There pins are a set distance from a line where the bowling ball can be released. Again a swing is used and not a stroke. The reason for the use spin for the first shot of a frame is to have the ball come into the pins at a certain angle such that it will drive through the pins in such a manner as to make them all fall. The bowling ball will deflect off the head pin which is why the sweet spot for a strike is to hit the head pin at such angle that when the bowling ball is deflected off the head pin, it's path will be straight back into the rest of the pins. The bowling ball is held in your hand and not hit with anything. The bowling ball gets moving first my you moving, then using the swing of your arm,then releasing the ball at the right moment in the swing and approach to the foul line, and then, using how you release it to get the spin on the ball. The is no pocket that the bowling ball has to go into, nor is there the requirement for position for the next shot.

Now lets take a look a pool game. The goal is to put a ball in a pocket, get shape for the next ball to go into one of 6 pockets. There is no one at the table trying to prevent you from doing this while shooting. To do this requires the use of two or more balls, the minimum being the CB and OB. The CB has to roll to the right spot on the table that makes the OB go where you want and then proceed to a position on the table for the next shot. Don't forget, a pool player isn't moving while shooting like in ping pong, tennis and bowling.

Spin might be needed for this and might not. It's use is all based on what position you need for the next shot, or what problem on the table you need to deal with.

In ping pong, a paddle is used, tennis, a racket, both of which are bigger surface area than the ball they are hitting and in bowling you grip the ball with your hand.

In pool there is the cue stick which is longer than a paddle or racket and which tip is smaller than what it is hitting, plus the use of of two points, your hands, is needed in order to move the cue in such a manner to stroke the CB. Shooting one handed, there is only one point, hand, needed. There is not the same arm motion that is used in ping pong, tennis, and bowling in making a pool shot.

You do not hold the CB, get moving then release the CB from your hand like in bowling. No swing with holding the cue stick like using a ping pong or tennis racket.

Pool is pool, there is nothing like it, there is very little in common with the sports that were mentioned where spin is used. Just because someone has rationalized to themselves that there are things in common, doesn't make it so in the real world. I've played those games mentioned and therefor do have a good understanding of those games fundamentals and dynamics.

If you can not see the differences between pool and these other sports, you just don't want too. Same with understanding what the margin of error is and that there is no shooting method or aiming method that can increase it's size.

 

[ShootingArts]

I read the first page and last

Spin is great! Side spin, quite a bit of it, has probably made me far more money than any other shot. I am of course talking about when the other person uses it.

Hu