Centre ball is my preference

[Baron]

I use the opposite of TOI - I just outside spin the shit out of everything ALL THE TIME. I tend to really like it in one pocket for purposes of getting around the stack. Only problem is, of course now I can't make any cuts using center ball.

I think I'm in the pool equivalent of my awkward teenage years.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Then why do most pros stay close to center? Orcollo, Shane, Archer, Alex and the list goes on. Earl and Efren are two exceptions really.

There is that word 'most' again.

I don't 'know'... but if you've heard those 4 say that that don't use english unless needed or any of the other standard lines one might want to consider the venue in which they say such & then watch them play & see what they mean by the word 'needed' etc.

I'm just say'in.

 

[buckshotshoey]

Ill start by saying that there is something missing here. Hitting center cue ball is the
hardest thing a player can do. It is one of the things that separate the good players from
the great ones. To prove my point.....

Set the cue ball near the mouth of a corner pocket. Not too deep, just enough
so you have to elevate the cue somewhat. Place an object ball in middle of table
in a perfectly straight line to the diagonal corner pocket. Hit cue ball on vertical axis,
make the shot, and follow the cue ball in a staight line to the pocket.

9 out of 10 of us couldn't do it 2 times in a row. Why? Because it is very difficult
to hit perfect center cue ball every time. Every good player uses right or left to move
the cue ball around the table. The game changer is when they decide to use the vertical axis.
The pro can do it about every time....with near perfection.

But even a pro in perfect stroke cannot hit perfect center every time.
There is still a small margin of error. One shot might go in dead center. Anoher shot come
close to, or go in off a cushion facing. But the pocket is big enough to accommodate that
particular players margin of error.

Hitting perfect center ball is harder then you think. Most shooters who think they are,
are seen by an instructor who says they are not. It is actually one of the hardest shots in pool
to accomplish. It requires the finest of touches.

 

[Neil]

Ill start by saying that there is something missing here. Hitting center cue ball is the
hardest thing a player can do. It is one of the things that separate the good players from
the great ones. To prove my point.....

Set the cue ball near the mouth of a corner pocket. Not too deep, just enough
so you have to elevate the cue somewhat. Place an object ball in middle of table
in a perfectly straight line to the diagonal corner pocket. Hit cue ball on vertical axis,
make the shot, and follow the cue ball in a staight line to the pocket.

9 out of 10 of us couldn't do it 2 times in a row. Why? Because it is very difficult
to hit perfect center cue ball every time. Every good player uses right or left to move
the cue ball around the table. The game changer is when they decide to use the vertical axis.
The pro can do it about every time....with near perfection.

But even a pro in perfect stroke cannot hit perfect center every time.
There is still a small margin of error. One shot might go in dead center. Anoher shot come
Close to or go in off a cushion facing. But the pocket is big enough to accommodate the margin
of error.

Hitting perfect center ball is harder then you think. Most shooters who think they are,
Are seen by an instructor who says they are not. It is actually one of the hardest shots in pool
to accomplish. It requires the finest of touches.

It's called practice. Ever see Kinnisters #1 shot? It's stopping the cb dead without movement. Ever read Mark Wilson's book or been to a certified instructor? Of course it's hard to do if one never practices hitting the cb where they want to.

But, to your argument of it being too hard, so why bother.... if you can't hit center axis reliably, you can't hit anywhere reliably. And, as we all agree (I hope we do) any off-center axis hit will produce squirt. Knowing that, how can you reliably compensate for squirt (not using proper BHE) if you don't even know how much you will get because you can't hit the cb where you want to? How can that be any easier?

Here's something you haven't seemed to considered- If you can't hit the cb dead center and follow into the same pocket, you can't ever hit the cb where you want to.
Using english isn't going to magically make you hit the cb where you intended to.

Pool played right looks very easy. But, to play it right takes a LOT of work. Something few are willing to do.

edit: One other thing, if you can't hit the cb where you want to, you aren't going to hit the ob where you want to either.

double edit: Something else you need to consider- one can also shoot the shot you described, hit perfectly center axis on the cb, and totally miss the shot. Your aim line has to be perfect also. If your shot line is a hair off, you still won't follow the cb into the hole. That is what makes the shot seem so tough. One can make the ball, and think they did good. But, the shot you described will test aiming, accurate cb striking, and accuracy of your stroke. You need all three to be successful with it. When one fails at the shot, they need to find out what area they failed in. CB accuracy could be perfect.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Incidentally, I don't know if you saw any of the beeb's recent coverage of the Welsh Open, but the commentators were talking about how Stuart Bingham had gone from also-ran to champion. I think it was Terry Griffiths who said he'd achieved it by changing from playing with 'helping' side, to playing primarily with centre ball. There was a natural tendency for snooker players to play with side when they played on older, thicker clothes - Griffiths said it is impossible to play in such a way now, which is why all the successful players are the ones that have adapted to centre ball striking. He said it took Bingham years to adapt to this change. Centre ball striking is HARD.

Once again, pool is massively behind the curve.

I didn't hear that commentary but I did notice during the World Champs that Stuart was one of few players who appeared to not be using helping / gearing outside english on soft to medium stun shots.

I observed Ronnie, Neil Robbo and Judd using it to some degree a couple of times a frame on average. This is when the CB is within 3 feet of the OB. I occasionally spotted a touch of gearing on the rolling pots as a bit of defense against kicks. This can be more problematic because it can swerve the CB off line more significantly when applying high side.

As an aside, most don't notice it, but good snooker players are genius like in their use of applying inside and outside off the black to control the CB bounce off the head rail to pick off available reds.

Colin

 

[Neil]

I've caught flack for editing post before, so for those few here's the edit I just made to my last post to buckshot-

edit: One other thing, if you can't hit the cb where you want to, you aren't going to hit the ob where you want to either.

double edit: Something else you need to consider- one can also shoot the shot you described, hit perfectly center axis on the cb, and totally miss the shot. Your aim line has to be perfect also. If your shot line is a hair off, you still won't follow the cb into the hole. That is what makes the shot seem so tough. One can make the ball, and think they did good. But, the shot you described will test aiming, accurate cb striking, and accuracy of your stroke. You need all three to be successful with it. When one fails at the shot, they need to find out what area they failed in. CB accuracy could be perfect.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Now, with experience and practice using YOUR tip on YOUR shaft with YOUR cue, you can step into a shot feeling how much TOI you need to pocket it. So, when you line up for that "undercut" to the right side of the pocket and you hit it perfectly, the CB will deflect the OB slightly to the left, which is the dead center of the pocket.

This terminology of "CB deflecting the OB" would seem to refer to what is called throw. I think it is being used wrongly here, as it has been in the past.

While on some shots, usually at higher speeds with higher cut angles and a 50%+ tip offset, the thickening throw actually reduces with inside english, when using a touch of inside, in pretty much every situation, the thickening throw increases compares to a center ball hit on the CB.

What may be happening is that hitting the TOI squirts the CB a little right of the aim line which takes it to a thinner hit on the OB.

Unfortunately, on all the TOI descriptions I've seen, the terminology has been imprecise.

I'm yet to discover anything about the system which makes it any more than an aim adjustment method, for those with a tendency to undercut rail shots. As such, it may be quite useful, but I think it would benefit the proponent to have a clear understanding of the process, such that he can better adjust for variables like bridge length, shot speed, swerve, throw and so on.

And of course, some benefit by becoming more adept at potting with a touch of inside to hold the CB travel off a rail, but you can learn to do that using any aiming system.

Colin

 

[buckshotshoey]

It's called practice. Ever see Kinnisters #1 shot? It's stopping the cb dead without movement. Ever read Mark Wilson's book or been to a certified instructor? Of course it's hard to do if one never practices hitting the cb where they want to.

But, to your argument of it being too hard, so why bother.... if you can't hit center axis reliably, you can't hit anywhere reliably. And, as we all agree (I hope we do) any off-center axis hit will produce squirt. Knowing that, how can you reliably compensate for squirt (not using proper BHE) if you don't even know how much you will get because you can't hit the cb where you want to? How can that be any easier?

Here's something you haven't seemed to considered- If you can't hit the cb dead center and follow into the same pocket, you can't ever hit the cb where you want to.
Using english isn't going to magically make you hit the cb where you intended to.

Pool played right looks very easy. But, to play it right takes a LOT of work. Something few are willing to do.

edit: One other thing, if you can't hit the cb where you want to, you aren't going to hit the ob where you want to either.

double edit: Something else you need to consider- one can also shoot the shot you described, hit perfectly center axis on the cb, and totally miss the shot. Your aim line has to be perfect also. If your shot line is a hair off, you still won't follow the cb into the hole. That is what makes the shot seem so tough. One can make the ball, and think they did good. But, the shot you described will test aiming, accurate cb striking, and accuracy of your stroke. You need all three to be successful with it. When one fails at the shot, they need to find out what area they failed in. CB accuracy could be perfect.

I have no idea where you got this from. NEVER said, or suggested it. If fact I said hitting center cue ball is an extremely difficult task to master.....its one thing that separates the good from the great. As for the rest, you appear to be agreeing with me. Re read my post. You will see I'm trying to say everyone needs to practice the strait ins and center axis much more often.

 

[Colin Colenso]

edit: One other thing, if you can't hit the cb where you want to, you aren't going to hit the ob where you want to either.

This is often, but not always the case.

As I mentioned in another thread recently, if one bridges at the effective pivot point, the CB will strike the OB at the same point regardless of where one strikes the CB, so a 2 inch margin of error.

Obviously throw varies for different offsets and different cut angles, but in some situations throw remains almost constant over a wide range of tip offsets.

An example is firm 3/4 ball pot with inside english. Throw varies little between 0.5 tip (6mm) to 1.5 tips (18mm) max offset, so if bridging at the effective pivot point, you can make this shot with about 12mm margin of error.

One might insight-fully add that this will lead to a variation in CB position, and this is generally true, but in a common situation of doubling 2 rails around a corner pocket, position does not vary much throughout this 0.5 to 1.5 tip range.

I'd say it can help a player if they are aware of how to take advantage of such variables and how to use this knowledge in identifying the cause of errors.

Colin

Edit: Thought I'd add a diagram to make what I'm saying easier to understand. On these 2 common type of shots, hitting 3/4 ball cuts firm with bridge at the effective pivot point, you have about 12mm margin for error for where your cue strikes the CB to not only make this shot, but to obtain nearly the same position.

This shot is under utilized by the average player but is a favorite of strong players.

 

[Neil]

I have no idea where you got this from. NEVER said, or suggested it. If fact I said hitting center cue ball is an extremely difficult task to master.....its one thing that separates the good from the great. As for the rest, you appear to be agreeing with me. Re read my post. You will see I'm trying to say everyone needs to practice the strait ins and center axis much more often.

The way I read your post, is that you are saying that it is so difficult to do, that one can't reasonably be expected to be able to unless they are at the very top echelon. And, by default then, one should use english. Sorry if I was wrong.

Please read my edits in the post shortly after my response to you. I believe it explains it better. Hitting dead center vertical axis is no harder than hitting anywhere you want to. You either can hit accurately, or you can't. Your test only showcases that many actually don't hit where they want to.

Another test, is hitting the cb straight up table and having it come back to your tip. Eliminates trying to find dead center on the ob, which is another thing many have trouble with. (when trying to hit dead center ob, always look at the very top or the very bottom of the ob, makes it easy to find exact center of the ob.)

 

[buckshotshoey]

This is often, but not always the case.

As I mentioned in another thread recently, if one bridges at the effective pivot point, the CB will strike the OB at the same point regardless of where one strikes the CB, so a 2 inch margin of error.

Obviously throw varies for different offsets and different cut angles, but in some situations throw remains almost constant over a wide range of tip offsets.

An example is firm 3/4 ball pot with inside english. Throw varies little between 0.5 tip (6mm) to 1.5 tips (18mm) max offset, so if bridging at the effective pivot point, you can make this shot with about 12mm margin of error.

One might insight-fully add that this will lead to a variation in CB position, and this is generally true, but in a common situation of doubling 2 rails around a corner pocket, position does not vary much throughout this 0.5 to 1.5 tip range.

I'd say it can help a player if they are aware of how to take advantage of such variables and how to use this knowledge in identifying the cause of errors.

Colin

Edit: Thought I'd add a diagram to make what I'm saying easier to understand. On these 2 common type of shots, hitting 3/4 ball cuts firm with bridge at the effective pivot point, you have about 12mm margin for error for where your cue strikes the CB to not only make this shot, but to obtain nearly the same position.

This shot is under utilized by the average player but is a favorite of strong players.

True. That's why I say to use the drill with cue somewhat elevated. It makes the accidental offset hit more noticeable. Even if backhand is used like you say, the speed must be correct to make shot. But the cue ball will tattle on you! Lol

 

[Neil]

This is often, but not always the case.

As I mentioned in another thread recently, if one bridges at the effective pivot point, the CB will strike the OB at the same point regardless of where one strikes the CB, so a 2 inch margin of error.

Obviously throw varies for different offsets and different cut angles, but in some situations throw remains almost constant over a wide range of tip offsets.

An example is firm 3/4 ball pot with inside english. Throw varies little between 0.5 tip (6mm) to 1.5 tips (18mm) max offset, so if bridging at the effective pivot point, you can make this shot with about 12mm margin of error.

One might insight-fully add that this will lead to a variation in CB position, and this is generally true, but in a common situation of doubling 2 rails around a corner pocket, position does not vary much throughout this 0.5 to 1.5 tip range.

I'd say it can help a player if they are aware of how to take advantage of such variables and how to use this knowledge in identifying the cause of errors.

Colin

Edit: Thought I'd add a diagram to make what I'm saying easier to understand. On these 2 common type of shots, hitting 3/4 ball cuts firm with bridge at the effective pivot point, you have about 12mm margin for error for where your cue strikes the CB to not only make this shot, but to obtain nearly the same position.

This shot is under utilized by the average player but is a favorite of strong players.

Notice in my post that I said if one doesn't use proper BHE. And, as you know, very few do. I would guestimate that 90% of the people that play pool have no idea what it even is. Surprising large amount on here still don't seem to know what it is. (which is really rather sad)

 

[buckshotshoey]

Ok. Now we are on same page. I meant that pros NEVER use all vertical axis. They are all ove the back of that ball. But, when they do use vertical axis, they do it with more accuracy. Practice...yes....a LOT of it.
It is a surprisingly difficult thing to master. Stance....shot line....eye alignment. ...all have to be good or you can't follow the cue ball in. Takes a lot of work. I'm getting there.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Here is the throw chart for a firm 3/4 ball pot that I constructed with assistance from Dr. Dave, who provided the data.

While this is a chart, it loosely represents where one strikes the CB face, but keep in mind, that a CB struck left middle can pick up follow before it hits the OB, so it chart representation will be higher on the chart.

I could tweak this to improve the accuracy, but it should provide a useful idea of the margin of error that I'm talking about. Note that the white region represents the same throw as a medium speed rolling pot with no english.

Observant viewers may note the white vertical zone for a touch of outside english right of center which represents gearing english.

Oh, this chart is for a right to left cut, the same as I diagrammed above.

 

[Neil]

Here is the throw chart for a firm 3/4 ball pot that I constructed with assistance from Dr. Dave, who provided the data.

While this is a chart, it loosely represents where one strikes the CB face, but keep in mind, that a CB struck left middle can pick up follow before it hits the OB, so it chart representation will be higher on the chart.

I could tweak this to improve the accuracy, but it should provide a useful idea of the margin of error that I'm talking about. Note that the white region represents the same throw as a medium speed rolling pot with no english.

Observant viewers may note the white vertical zone for a touch of outside english right of center which represents gearing english.

Oh, this chart is for a right to left cut, the same as I diagrammed above.

I'm sure the chart is accurate, and will help some understand. But, quite frankly, I don't have a friggin clue what I am looking at with it.

 

[buckshotshoey]

Notice in my post that I said if one doesn't use proper BHE. And, as you know, very few do. I would guestimate that 90% of the people that play pool have no idea what it even is. Surprising large amount on here still don't seem to know what it is. (which is really rather sad)

Very true. Only one other guy on my team knows how to properly use BHE. The others, well, they don't take the time to understand it.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Notice in my post that I said if one doesn't use proper BHE. And, as you know, very few do. I would guestimate that 90% of the people that play pool have no idea what it even is. Surprising large amount on here still don't seem to know what it is. (which is really rather sad)

Good points. I think a lot of players tend to be bridging within a couple of inches of their effective pivot points when playing these shots, even if they have no idea of the concept. So they get some of this margin of error benefit, but not the maximal effect.

Those that are pretty close to the effective pivot point will find that they have a greater margin for error when they perhaps unintentionally strike the CB wider or narrower than intended. In essence, they are performing a pivot, albeit, unknowingly.

Though understood by few, I think pivot points should be essential foundational knowledge for those aspiring to a high level of play so they can understand how to increase margins of error and so they can more quickly ascertain the cause of potting errors, which far too often are blamed on the stroke over the bridge placement.

Yes, stroke plays a role as buckshot pointed out above with his reference to shot speed, but a great deal of the variability produced by in stroking can be largely nullified by utlizing a suitable bridge length in accordance with the effective pivot point for a given shot, even when one is not intending to apply english.

For example, on a longish straight stun shot, if one bridges about an inch longer than the effective pivot point and accidentally hits the CB 1mm either side of CCB, the net squirt and throw pretty much cancel out. It certainly increases one's margin of error regarding the need to strike the CB dead on the vertical axis.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

I'm sure the chart is accurate, and will help some understand. But, quite frankly, I don't have a friggin clue what I am looking at with it.

hehe... yeah, it's a little strange, but easy once comprehended.

Thr right side is for outside english, left for inside english. Maximum thickening throw occurs in the darker orange zone, which is about 2 inches per yard of thickening throw, for a sliding CB with about 1/4 tip of inside english.

Narrowing or widening throw of about 2 inches per yard occurs in the darker blue region which represents a near sliding CB with about 50% outside english, roughly equivalent to 3/4 tip of outside.

The darker the colors the more throw and so generally, these shots are avoided.

I produced about 30 of these charts which represent the full range of shots from straight to thin cuts from slow to hard shots, so one can quickly find the approximate amount of throw for any given shot.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[Patrick Johnson]

CJ Wiley:
...when you line up for that "undercut" to the right side of the pocket and you hit it perfectly, the CB will deflect the OB slightly to the left, which is the dead center of the pocket.

Colin:
This terminology of "CB deflecting the OB" would seem to refer to what is called throw.

I'm pretty sure he means the CB deflects to the right, cutting the OB to the left - standard TOI procedure. It was CJ quoting his student, so maybe that's why the description is a little mangled.

pj
chgo

 

[Colin Colenso]

I'm pretty sure he means the CB deflects to the right, cutting the OB to the left - standard TOI procedure. It was CJ quoting his student, so maybe that's why the description is a little mangled.

pj
chgo

Perhaps, but I don't think it's the first time I've seen it mentioned a similar way. The clarification police are knocking on his front door, but CJ is jumping the back fence.

I wasn't sure where CJ stopped typing and the student's quote began. But I'd think CJ has a duty to correct it, if he thinks it worthy of quoting.

Colin