Chalk.... Inconvenient Truths....

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
My only deep apology is to Royce... He was a better man than me and I miss his guidance... I will apologize to the rest of AZ for the drama as I should have waited until I could post something of substance instead of calling names but Dave did post his link on my site and has been doing so on my sales threads for awhile on FB... He is spreading myth... That's 1 thing I won't do... If I say something will break... That it's a knockoff or that they are breaking Federal Trade Laws, when I say those things..... I have no problem standing behind them... Royce taught me no BS... As long as it's not BS... I have no problem standing behind what I say..... and we do still make our products out of my home.. about 1000 ft is now Outsville... We live in the other 1400 for now... But Back to the inconvenient truths....

Some Inconvenient truths..... Dispelled by a different kind of PHD and Genius......

Many of you have likely seen this on you tube... http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/chalk.html..... After 6 years studying, making and pretty much breathing and eating chalk... There are some truths that won't match up with a bad set of tests and an amateur stroke.....

1) Chalk doesn't either miss cue or create good contact..... Use your ears the next time you don't get the results you expected... Good contact has a warm wave form when you look at the sound wave.. A miss cue will have a higher sound and it has a narrower wave form... A slip depending on when it occurs will be in between as will be the amount of english you get....

2) Premium Chalk does not have a different misscue limit than standard chalk... That would be akin to saying bald tires get the same traction as drag slicks maybe in a pinto but not on anything else... Premium chalks have graded abrasives and they are higher in quality and are in abundance... Abrasives are what makes chalk work...

3) As long as you chalk each shot it doesn't matter what chalk you use... Yeah no.... Better chalk will change your game it you give it a month for your subconscious to relearn the new limits and you can trust those limits on each shot using several premiums as they are more consistent and homogeneous thruout the cube/piece

So on to the PHD and Genius... I wanted to build a robot before I got into this and then I went to the Expo.... Not sure who all saw this but Mark Rosner and a few others saw it so this is not fiction....
I apologize for not allowing Corey to make this post but he is likely somewhere trying to win a tournament.. using his PHD or Pool Hall Degree.....

Corey Deuel was at the Expo and decided to see for himself if there really was a difference between Master and Kamui... His idea on how to test this and eliminate bias and stroke flaws was once again pure genius.... And all it took was the chalk, his cue and a simple notebook...
What Corey did was to use the notebook to establish the height of his stroke... He then took turns with the different chalks and started turning pages to lower his cue as he went on shooting draw shots....
Once he established a misscue limit for the master he continued to turn pages and go lower and lower with the Kamui.... Now I have to point out that the master had a fluctuating limit since it does not use a graded abrasive... What you thought was the limit for one shot was not the limit the next time....

I have not done the test with the different chalks because of time but this is something ANY of you can try... I can't say Great White will beat Kamui or that we will lose to them either but I can say that anyone who says there is no difference in the different chalks is completely wrong and you can prove it to yourself.... Best part is that this is what matters... Noone shoots 20 shots between chalking unless they are playing for fun.....
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
Not so sure miscues are stroke related only ??. I sat in my house, watched SVB chalk up with Masters and then miscue and almost lose the game/match because of it. I replayed it at least a dozen times in "slo-mo" and it was not a stroke issue, I can tell you that.

He looked back like "WTF"... as he just chalked. The miscue still let him dribble the shot in, but left him pretty tough on the next shot, that of course, he fired in with no problems.

For Dave to say it does NOT matter is equivalent of saying "tips" don't matter, or shaft diameter, or weight, etc. etc. If it did not matter, why don't we all use Pioneer Chalk or Silver Cup, or pass me some LAVA ;) Though, Dave does GREAT work, and I love his videos :)

Heck, if folks don't want to buy chalk from me, that's fine, but please, get some premium chalk, there are many on the markets that are great and it's the least expensive piece of equipment that we all use.... heck, my pool glove costs more ;)
 
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Ak147

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Occasionally I have used better quality chalk from my friends and I can feel the extra bite in shots that require english. They seem to spread evenly on my hard cue tip and stay longer.


PS: I am neither a chalk expert nor A player, I usually play with house chalk.
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
I have to agree Chris. I never wanted to get in a debate about it, so I never went "there". Especially about the "miscues". I sat in my house, watched
SVB chalk up with Masters and then miscue and almost lose the game/match because of it. I replayed it at least a dozen times in "slo-mo" and it was not a stroke issue, I can tell you that.

He looked back like "WTF"... as he just chalked. The miscue still let him dribble the shot in, but left him pretty tough on the next shot, that of course, he fired in with no problems.

For Dave to say it does NOT matter is equivalent of saying "tips" don't matter, or shaft diameter, or weight, etc. etc. If it did not matter, why don't we all use Pioneer Chalk or Silver Cup, or pass me some LAVA ;)

Heck, if folks don't want to buy chalk from me, that's fine, but please, get some premium chalk, there are many on the markets that are great and it's the least expensive piece of equipment that we all use.... heck, my pool glove costs more ;)

Corey proved what Dave left up to his amateur stroke was wrong... I think I pointed that out... We will get into tips next..... Hint... tips are springs... Not solids so equations once again are wrong... get used to it....... Don't steal my thunder =D
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
I have to agree Chris. I never wanted to get in a debate about it, so I never went "there". Especially about the "miscues". I sat in my house, watched
SVB chalk up with Masters and then miscue and almost lose the game/match because of it. I replayed it at least a dozen times in "slo-mo" and it was not a stroke issue, I can tell you that.

He looked back like "WTF"... as he just chalked. The miscue still let him dribble the shot in, but left him pretty tough on the next shot, that of course, he fired in with no problems.

For Dave to say it does NOT matter is equivalent of saying "tips" don't matter, or shaft diameter, or weight, etc. etc. If it did not matter, why don't we all use Pioneer Chalk or Silver Cup, or pass me some LAVA ;)

Heck, if folks don't want to buy chalk from me, that's fine, but please, get some premium chalk, there are many on the markets that are great and it's the least expensive piece of equipment that we all use.... heck, my pool glove costs more ;)

RJ we will fight for years but it will be over other things... Magic Chalk is top 3 regardless of how much credit i want to give you (actually without you no one would have heard of it so NM) it's good stuff... =P Hope your son and family are well =)
 
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Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
My only deep apology is to Royce.
You owe deep apologies to several people but particularly Dr. Dave. Aside from you calling him "Dr. Doofus" which could possibly be the most blatant case of against the rules name calling that has ever been done on this site, it was especially egregious against someone as esteemed and highly intelligent as Dr. Dave who has done more to help people and the game of pool than most people out there and certainly more than you could ever dream of doing in thirty lifetimes. Only Fast Larry could have dreamed of being as out of line.

[Royce] was a better man than me and I miss his guidance.
Too bad he couldn't teach you some class.

I will apologize to the rest of AZ for the drama as I should have waited until I could post something of substance instead of calling names but Dave did post his link on my site and has been doing so on my sales threads for awhile on FB.
Dr. Dave and everybody else should be correcting you. That is what you should do with any snake oil salesmen or with anyone who would try to pass off falsehoods and nonsense and untruths. As far as waiting until you could post something of substance, all I can say is I wouldn't suggest holding your breathe until it happens.

[Dr. Dave] is spreading myth.
The only person spreading myths is you, lots of them, and often.

Royce taught me no BS.
Too bad he couldn't teach you sense.

After 6 years studying, making and pretty much breathing and eating chalk...
You can punch out pieces of leather and mix batches of chalk for a hundred years and it has nothing to do with how well you actually understand the science of how things really happen, or how to conduct experiments properly, or how to evaluate evidence, or whether you will choose to believe baseless guesses and suppositions and perceptions over actual evidence.

There are some truths that won't match up with a bad set of tests
You got that right. Unfortunately you can't tell the difference. Not to mention that we haven't even seen any tests from you, even bad ones.

1) Chalk doesn't either miss cue or create good contact..... Use your ears the next time you don't get the results you expected... Good contact has a warm wave form when you look at the sound wave.. A miss cue will have a higher sound and it has a narrower wave form... A slip depending on when it occurs will be in between as will be the amount of english you get....
So you are going to believe some minor tonal sound difference over much more compelling evidence? This is exactly what I was talking about. Do you really think there isn't a much more likely reason for these minor tone differences you think you hear? "Slippage" is one of the biggest myths you push. For all practical purposes you either miscue, or you don't. If slippage exists at all, it is both very infrequent, and very minor, and has essentially no significant effect in a game of pool. And you have shown zero evidence that it exists in pool no matter how minor and infrequent. Zero.

2) Premium Chalk does not have a different misscue limit than standard chalk... That would be akin to saying bald tires get the same traction as drag slicks maybe in a pinto but not on anything else... Premium chalks have graded abrasives and they are higher in quality and are in abundance...
Your tire analogy is a horrible one and is a straw man argument. Nobody has claimed chalk can't be made that will miscue closer to center ball than other chalks (talcum powder would be a good example). What Dr. Dave's tests indicated, if I recall correctly, is that those particular chalks that were tested all had enough grip to take you to essentially the same miscue limits. It appears to be a case where you need "5 units of grippiness" to reach the miscue limits on the cue ball, and some of the chalk may have had 5, some 6, some 8, but it didn't matter because 5 or more gets you to the same place and a little more grippiness just doesn't get you any further out from center. It may take something like 40 units of grippiness (like with some kind of a rubber tip maybe) before you can go beyond the normal miscue limits and even then it isn't by very much, and no chalk comes remotely close to giving you 40 so essentially they are all the same in regards to the miscue limits as long as they have 5.

For the record I too thought different chalks would give noticeably different miscue limits but the only legitimate evidence we have so far says otherwise. At the very least it seems clear that if there are differences in this regard they are much smaller than we would have guessed and are likely inconsequential or close to it. But smart people believe evidence over guesses and perceptions and so for right now as a smart person I have to acknowledge that the evidence is probably right over my perception.

3) As long as you chalk each shot it doesn't matter what chalk you use... Yeah no.... Better chalk will change your game it you give it a month for your subconscious to relearn the new limits and you can trust those limits on each shot using several premiums as they are more consistent and homogeneous thruout the cube/piece
Show any legitimate evidence for this claim. Any. Legitimate.

His idea on how to test this and eliminate bias and stroke flaws was once again pure genius.... And all it took was the chalk, his cue and a simple notebook...
What Corey did was to use the notebook to establish the height of his stroke... He then took turns with the different chalks and started turning pages to lower his cue as he went on shooting draw shots....
Once he established a misscue limit for the master he continued to turn pages and go lower and lower with the Kamui....
Actually that is a horrible experiment without some additional safeguards and parameters and controls, for several reasons. The fact that you don't recognize that is exactly why you are wrong about your conclusions on things. You don't know how to properly construct experiments, and don't have the capacity to properly evaluate evidence or results either.

Now I have to point out that the master had a fluctuating limit since it does not use a graded abrasive... What you thought was the limit for one shot was not the limit the next time....
I say this is another of your false claims. Lets see some evidence, and what was almost undoubtedly the shoddy experiment with Corey is not evidence although you haven't even bothered to submit a video tape of that and claim it as evidence to begin with.

anyone who says there is no difference in the different chalks is completely wrong and you can prove it to yourself.
Yup, they can start with a decent experiment such as Dr. Dave's and prove it for themselves. Their conclusion is likely to be different from yours though.

Noone shoots 20 shots between chalking unless they are playing for fun.
True, and I don't recall Dr. Dave claiming anybody does or should. But all else being equal, a pretty good argument can be made for the chalk that "lasts longer" without reapplication before miscuing as being a better chalk.
 
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Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
Sorry your anon works proceed u =)

Precisely the answer I expect when someone doesn't have anything of any substance to defend their out of line actions or nonsense beliefs.

Let us know when you have the apology to Dr. Dave and the others you insulted and called names without justifiable reason, and let us know if you ever come up with any evidence to support any of the nonsense claims you make.
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
I understand reading isn't for everyone but you should amble back up the sheep trail.... And try again...
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
I understand reading isn't for everyone but you should amble back up the sheep trail.... And try again...

Refer back to this post:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5560159&postcount=4

Keep spouting your ridiculous nonsense, with no evidence whatsoever to support it, and in fact with all evidence opposing it, and expect to keep getting called on it. Like I said, let us know if you ever come up with any evidence. Until then you should be keeping the ears open and the mouth closed trying to learn instead of trying to teach because learning is clearly what you are in need of right now. Oh, did I mention to let us know if you ever come up with any evidence to support any of the nonsense claims you make?

Whatever your next response is, my answer in advance is do you have any evidence whatsoever to support any of your nonsense claims with? Didn't think so.
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member

you are anon... grow a a pair and post up....

Corey did the test and he saw what I saw... Good try but i don't have to answer to someone that has no heart and won't even sign their name.. At least Dave signs off when he is wrong LOL... all bow to an anon troll nahhh not today skippy.......
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
you are anon... grow a a pair and post up....

Corey did the test and he saw what I saw... Good try but i don't have to answer to someone that has no heart and won't even sign their name.. At least Dave signs off when he is wrong LOL... all bow to an anon troll nahhh not today skippy.......

I will do better and introduce myself next time we are in the same place if you find it important. The truth of the matter is that it is only when one can't defend their position and have no evidence to support their wild claims that they have to try to turn the topic into something completely different and immaterial like what somebodies name is or what they look like. It is all you can do when you have nothing else and can't just address the issue at hand. Like I said, if you ever have any evidence to support any of your nonsense claims then post it up. You can start by posting the Corey experiment video so we can see if it was actually a good experiment conducted properly.

Oh, in case I have forgotten to ask in the past, will you please share any evidence you have that supports the nonsense claims you make? I'm sure you wouldn't want anybody to get the impression that you would intentionally make up nonsense claims without any evidence to support them just so you could try to sell more product.
 

tashworth19191

Pool will make you humble
Silver Member
After reading this thread, I am sure that I will never purchase anything from outsville.com. This was a very bad thread and I should have not wasted my time reading such insults....
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
yup nada................

You have been making nonsense claims for years in an effort to push your products even in the face of the evidence which says that many of your claims are not just wrong, but complete and utter nonsense. Worse yet, you call names and try to insult the people that call you on it and who do actually provide evidence (which happens to directly oppose your claims). It's time for you to produce some evidence, otherwise it makes no sense for you or anyone else to continue having a belief without any evidence to support it (especially when the evidence actually contradicts that belief).

But today, as with all the other days in the years past, yup, nada. Nothing. Your type relies precisely on the hope that you don't get called on it, or that you can change the subject and try to misdirect attention if you do, and that you won't have to substantiate your claims. Well guess what, you've been called on it, a lot, which is precisely why you are upset with Dr. Dave and others. Now it is time to post up some evidence or drop the false claims.

Keep on going though if you want but I'll save you some time. My next response to you is still going to be "show us any evidence that supports your silly claims--anything". And again you are just going to try to change the subject to something else like what somebody's name is, or what the weather is like in Kansas. And my next response is still going to be to show us some evidence, any evidence, and you are just going to try to change the subject again ad nauseum.

Don't think for a minute that it isn't clear to everyone that you have no evidence or you would be posting it. Don't think for a minute that they don't see right through you and what your real intentions are when you try to insult or call names to Dr. Dave or others when they provide real evidence that contradicts the claims you are making to try to move more product.

So go ahead and change the subject again but just like last time I am giving my answer in advance: "Show any evidence you have that supports your silly claims". It's way overdue.
 
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The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
After reading this thread, I am sure that I will never purchase anything from outsville.com. This was a very bad thread and I should have not wasted my time reading such insults....

First post was actually about what Corey did to test the chalk and what to actually expect regarding premium chalk... After that is was a sheep/troll and sheep/troll spray.... I really don't care if you buy ours or not but to continue to use master thinking it's the same when you have kamui and Magic as well as ours.... well have at it....
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member

I have no reason to read anything you post because you are anon likely an apa 5ish?... You could be PJ or English, pooplaya9 or any number of irrelevant posters.... Your opinion is based in opinion and not fact... You are welcome to ask Corey what he found out if you know him... Likely not but you could....

Sorry but not sorry that I will not entertain you... You did not try the test
and just started running that holster.... It's all good but I won't play... Go try the test and video the results or step off.... Dave likely has plenty of other sheep to defend him.
 

Lonestar_jim

Two & Out
Silver Member
What am I to learn from this thread ? Dr. Dave has an amateur stroke ?

Thanks for that.

I just lost my cube of RJs chalk tonight. Send me some samples of your chalk and I will pay you if it works half as well as Russian magic (unless it sells for more coin).

PM me if you want to help out.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
I don't have a stake in this, but appears to me the the Dr.Dave experiment mostly supported my beliefs when it comes to chalk performance. When it comes to skids, they are major obstacles to a high run and I'd much rather compromise on tip placement than having to worry about skids all the time. As a matter of fact I think Kamui chalk should not be legal in competition! It sticks to cloth/cues and the balls, making skids more likely for both the user and the opponent!

I haven't seen an experiment yet that supports the idea that chalk grip is an either/or proposition. Common sense and experience at the table does seem to suggest that there is a "transition" zone between the two states. IMO an experiment on this would be rather difficult and time consuming to carry out.
 
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