Challenge of Champions dump

SakuJack

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is my stipulation just to insure that this goes off the right way.

We have to set it up so that no one knows what the shots are before they face them. We set up a camera and tell them that there is $50,000 riding on them running out and they are being watched.

We pull random people into the room and let them shoot it. That way we don't have a line of people who went and practiced the shots beforehand.

There has to be some way to simulate the pressure Buddy was under or it doesn't count. Anyone is likely to make any shot with zero pressure. Getting a $25 free roll is the opposite of pressure IMO.

Figure out a good way to make the shooter feel that pressure and you have action for sure.

lol


Yellow%20Duck.jpg
 

Spimp13

O8 Specialist
Silver Member
I think the toughest part will be to agree on a $$ amount that is considered enough pressure. You won't find 100 guys to do it for $50k (even if it is just simulation but they don't know it). You will find a sht ton to do it for $25...

What is the dollar difference to meet in the middle that each side would consider enough to be comparable to the $50k?
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
And wannawannabe, I can have a discussion. Did I call you names? This is a discussion, many of us have given our thoughts on it. Sorry that I don't toe the party line and snap to a conviction as easily as some other people do it.

For this particular topic I like to think a little deeper about it and analyze it for myself instead of relying on someone else's opinion only.

No one had to attack me personally over it like you have done. We are discussing a match that happened 23 years ago. It has absolutely ZERO bearing on today's pool world. Jeeze we live in a world where people get caught doing far worse than this and they go on to live their lives with no appreciable consequence.

The difference is they got CAUGHT and these guys did not. They were not arrested, roughed up, barred from Vegas or the Mirage, fined by the Pro Billiards Tour, nor barred by Matt Braun.

NOTHING happened to them.

Why not?

BECAUSE whatever suspicions people had were just left at suspicions because nothing was proven.

And yet, some of you people 23 years later are utterly convinced that there is no doubt based on a couple missed shots. The very same people who have missed easier shots dozens of times in their lives under far less pressure.

Now again, for the 50th time, I don't know if a dump occurred and neither do you. No one but the people involved know it FOR SURE. It is possible. It is plausible. It is impossible to know based on the third party HEARSAY evidence we have and the video of the match.

In my OPINION.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
I think the toughest part will be to agree on a $$ amount that is considered enough pressure. You won't find 100 guys to do it for $50k (even if it is just simulation but they don't know it). You will find a sht ton to do it for $25...

What is the dollar difference to meet in the middle that each side would consider enough to be comparable to the $50k?

I agree. The players would have to come in to the room and take the shot under the impression that SOMEONE was going to lose 50k if they missed. Just tell them two millionaires are betting on how well an amateur can hold up to the pressure.

Even at that if the shooter doesn't stand to lose anything then it's still not the same.
 

TWOFORPOOL

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't care what anybody in this thread bets on or doesn't but if anyone thinks this shot is an unmissable hanger they are mistaken. Even on a large pocket table this shot can be missed.

ONB


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Its the way he missed the shot. Any Pro will make sure he doesn't over cut this since the 9 ball can still go in off the side rail with such big pockets. The only way to guarantee a miss it to make sure the 9 ball hits the end rail first.
 

Banks

Banned

That pretty much sums it up. Find some random schmucks to play on a more difficult table, under situations they've never been in before for an amount they've never played for before. Yeah, then you can have a glass-stacking contest with a Parkinson's patient.

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and plays like a duck..
 

PINKLADY

ICNBB
Silver Member
....I hope all players thinking of dumping will take this thread as a warning. We will analyze every match we find and run forensics on your every action. This is the internet age son and we are all CSI.

:)

isn't this, the point of this thread?

let me restate that:

THIS, is the point, of this thread - and for the future of Pool.

.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Its the way he missed the shot. Any Pro will make sure he doesn't over cut this since the 9 ball can still go in off the side rail with such big pockets. The only way to guarantee a miss it to make sure the 9 ball hits the end rail first.

How big were the pockets?

Also, the tiniest mishit on the eight sends it to the wrong place on the nine.

I did a ghost ball video where I shift the frozen gb by the barest fraction and it results in the object ball missing the pocket by a ball's with.

Again not saying that Buddy didn't purposefully miss.

What I question is why even go to that point if you are throwing the match? Why not miss any other ball in the runout? For example he could have dogged the five on purpose and no one would have suspected it. Because the five was a reverse cut with tricky position. He could have overcut the six slightly. And finally, he could have given himself a much more difficult shot on the 8/9 combo with a larger angle to the 8 with more distance.

I can see where you are coming from but it seems like very few people want to analyze it deeper than just these two shots.

I am just an amateur hack. But I have played in a lot of action matches, a lot of pressure matches. I know for myself what it feels like when my arm locks up or my timing is off. I know what it feels like to face an "easy" shot and then know that I hit it bad as soon as my tip hits the ball.

I am pretty sure everyone on AZB has missed easy shots in pressure matches. That includes every pro member as well. So to me this shot doesn't say dump UNLESS you already have it in your mind that a dump is suspected.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
That pretty much sums it up. Find some random schmucks to play on a more difficult table, under situations they've never been in before for an amount they've never played for before. Yeah, then you can have a glass-stacking contest with a Parkinson's patient.

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and plays like a duck..

Well this is a discussion about pressure. What's the point if the shots are free rolls with zero pressure?

You knock CJ but CJ was trying to explain the situation from the top professional perspective.

A perspective that I don't have, you don't have, not even Jay Helfert has.

To act as if even the great Buddy Hall can't ever miss is ludicrous. As good as he was there have been more tournaments he played in that he lost than ones he won.

Ever seen a pro golfer miss an easy putt for big money? Guess they all dumped. Tiger Woods famously has thrown his putter across the green a few times after missing putts.

Fact is YOU don't know what it was like for Buddy. You don't know if there was a dump or not. You THINK there was one and that is what drives your comments. I think that it could have been and that it might not have been. That I don't 100% agree with you drives you and other's nuts for some reason.

Wonder why?
 

MahnaMahna

Beefcake. BEEFCAKE!!
Silver Member
Oh golly. Really? So you get to break the rules and troll and stalk people with no consequences? Seems to me the reason you want to be anon is because you want the freedom to act like a jackass and never have to answer for it.



Because you see, when you don't stalk and harass people then no one is ever motivated to seek redress in other ways.



Because to a troll, it's just a silly internet argument, words don't matter how could anyone get so upset? But to the person you're attacking words probably do matter, in fact the more that you, the troll, know that the matter the more vicious you are.



WHY?



Because you're anonymous and know you don't have to answer for your words.



LIke this guy, http://www.salon.com/2012/10/15/infamous_reddit_troll_loses_job_after_gawker_expose/



Anonymity can be used for good or evil, you use it for evil.


So if you knew my name, how would I "answer" for what I have said on here?

And to use that article as an example just shows what a dumb shit you really are. How is arguing on here equatable to (quote from your article):

His speciality is distributing images of scantily-clad underage girls, but as Violentacrez he also issued an unending fountain of racism, porn, gore, misogyny, incest, and exotic abominations yet unnamed,

Boo hoo, did I hurt your feelings? CJ seems to be able to take the heat just find without "making people answer" for their words against him.

You are bad for these forums, bad for the game of pool, and all around a crappy person. Your OCD issues has caused your internet problems to become real life problems. Why you think you ever should give any advice or share your worthless opinion about anything is absolutely retarded.
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What I question is why even go to that point if you are throwing the match? Why not miss any other ball in the runout? For example he could have dogged the five on purpose and no one would have suspected it. Because the five was a reverse cut with tricky position. He could have overcut the six slightly. And finally, he could have given himself a much more difficult shot on the 8/9 combo with a larger angle to the 8 with more distance.

.

Because he didn't think Lebron was going to make that combo .
Hell, you said it's not an easy combo to make.

Of course, you conveniently forgot Buddy nearly hooked himself on the 6.
Had he hooked himself, HE MIGHT HAVE MOVED THE 9 ball just enough to bust that cluster.

Oh, didn't you rest this argument already?

Few more thousands words coming ?
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
I have no opinion on what Buddy was thinking, I do have an opinion about whether this match "hurt" Pro Pool in any way, shape or form. .....it certainly did not.

The Mirage continued to book pool matches as if nothing ever happened......so there's no reason to believe anything did happen.....unless you like conspiracy theories of course.

Did they? I don't remember hearing that they did keep booking matches.

At Large do you have the stats?

And I have to assume that the seven players accused would have kept it pretty tight lipped so my next question would have been how much was bet on the other six players?

Was it $10,000, $20,000? $100,000 I mean for all we know the casino made a profit. It isn't like they are sharing their books with us.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Because he didn't think Lebron was going to make that combo .
Hell, you said it's not an easy combo to make.

Of course, you conveniently forgot Buddy nearly hooked himself on the 6.
Had he hooked himself, HE MIGHT HAVE MOVED THE 9 ball just enough to bust that cluster.

Oh, didn't you rest this argument already?

Few more thousands words coming ?

I did until people started insulting me.

I understand your speculation on what Buddy might have been thinking. Still I look at at it extremely risky for him to run all the way down to the combo and then dog it on purpose. Like putting it all down to one shot.

And on that shot Mike gets hooked and has to come with two really good shots to win.

Not bad for a guy you think that Buddy thought was incapable of making what you think is an easy combination.
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
I agree. The players would have to come in to the room and take the shot under the impression that SOMEONE was going to lose 50k if they missed. Just tell them two millionaires are betting on how well an amateur can hold up to the pressure.

Even at that if the shooter doesn't stand to lose anything then it's still not the same.

OK done. Set it up. You can tell the shooters anything you like. Obviously, some will already know, but a majority of them will not.

Or, I can just shoot the 2 shots for $2K, $3K or $5K, which is about 50-100 times more than I ever bet in a pool game ever !!! So, yeah, a little pressure for me. C'mon, you'll sell at least 10 extra cases that day just from the crowd ;)

And then I'll turn around and order a custom JB case if I win :)
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
How many times did you scratch or dog the 8 or 9 when you played for $100K against Vivian?
I believe that was for 100K.
I don't recall you missing.

The winner of that match received $60,000 and the loser received $40,000.

So another way to look at it is that the men's and women's singles events, which had first prizes of $20,000 each, actually had first prizes of $60,000 each ($20,000 plus the $40,000 guaranteed from participating in the mixed-singles match), and then the mixed-singles match was for the additional $20,000.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
So if you knew my name, how would I "answer" for what I have said on here?

And to use that article as an example just shows what a dumb shit you really are. How is arguing on here equatable to (quote from your article):

His speciality is distributing images of scantily-clad underage girls, but as Violentacrez he also issued an unending fountain of racism, porn, gore, misogyny, incest, and exotic abominations yet unnamed,

Boo hoo, did I hurt your feelings? CJ seems to be able to take the heat just find without "making people answer" for their words against him.

You are bad for these forums, bad for the game of pool, and all around a crappy person. Your OCD issues has caused your internet problems to become real life problems. Why you think you ever should give any advice or share your worthless opinion about anything is absolutely retarded.

So I am retarded?

The subject of the article was a master troll. You are junior league in comparison but a troll nonetheless.

Yeah, you hurt my feelings. And no you don't have to answer for that, yet. If you think it's ok to go off on people, calling them retarded and other names then hey do your thing. I would stay anonymous too if I were in your position with your attitude.

I stand up for what I think and take the heat, as myself. John Barton, who travels all over the world. I am not afraid to meet anyone I have had dialog with on the internet.

You are. That's the ultimate difference.

As for which of us contributes more to the community.

How about we put it to the vote. A one month ban on the loser.

Let the community decide which of us has more value to AZB, you or me. Up for that anon? Now if you lose you can come back as just another anon. I can't come back as JB Cases - just another perk of being an anonymous troll.
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I did until people started insulting me.

I understand your speculation on what Buddy might have been thinking. Still I look at at it extremely risky for him to run all the way down to the combo and then dog it on purpose. Like putting it all down to one shot.

And on that shot Mike gets hooked and has to come with two really good shots to win.

Not bad for a guy you think that Buddy thought was incapable of making what you think is an easy combination.
Risky?
He almost scratched, he almost got hooked and he missed the combo on the bad side . Soft enough that the 9 would not have gone the other end and get slopped .
And the hill-hill game wasn't meant to be .
HE dogged the 8 in the previous on the fat side and the 8-ball was inches away from a sitting duck on the side pocket .
Buddy, the man who'd easily beat Efren for 10K suddenly is dogging it against a Lebron ? TOUGH SALE.
Same with Howard dogging the 9-ball to the fat side.
In the immortal words of officer Murtaugh and Martin Riggs, " that's kinda thin."
And ref of the tournament saw them as strange happenings.
 

PINKLADY

ICNBB
Silver Member
I bet Buddy on motorized cart would make that 8 ball for 50k right now.
I wouldn't bet against it .

clarified that for everyone who missed this post.
talk about pressure!
if straightup, 1-shot, no side bets, $50K.
my money's on Buddy right now....



.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
OK done. Set it up. You can tell the shooters anything you like. Obviously, some will already know, but a majority of them will not.

Or, I can just shoot the 2 shots for $2K, $3K or $5K, which is about 50-100 times more than I ever bet in a pool game ever !!! So, yeah, a little pressure for me. C'mon, you'll sell at least 10 extra cases that day just from the crowd ;)

And then I'll turn around and order a custom JB case if I win :)

You shooting them isn't right because between now and then you will have had time to practice them thousands of times.

There isn't any real way to duplicate the pressure as I see it right now. Figure that out and we can set up the experiment.
 
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