Challenging people when you dont agree with them

Spectacular post! Nicely stated.

All it proves is that someone has more money to waste than me, or doesn't care about what money he has.

I'm not against gambling. I'm against the attitude that if you aren't willing to gamble, you lack guts. That symptom of "Lacking guts" sometimes means the person is using their brain.

Or as my father once told me, "Don't gamble what you can't afford to lose." Well I can't afford to lose anything these days... I'm glad some folks can.
 
JB Cases said:
I think part of the problem with this particular forum is that some of us DO come from the pool room where people don't have a problem with the woofing and barking and everyone understands how far they can take it without escalating into something serious. And a lot of the posters on this forum aren't really part of that subculture in pool. They don't get it from that perspective.

That's my thoughts on the matter.

But as far as challenging someone to bet on their words what better way is there to see if a person really believes what they are saying?

If they won't bet on it and won't invest in it then how convinced of their position are they really?

I say "bet on it" a lot and propose the experiments to test my side of the debate. I am fully willing to take a financial beating if I am wrong.

By the same token I once said Kelly Fisher is one of the best players on the planet and that she can hang with any man. Well the line to bet against me got longer it would be if they started giving away free Iphones at the Apple Store. Were all those people wrong to ask me to bet on my words and back them up with something concrete?
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No, the problem is you. Where ever you go, you start a pissing match.

You are just a little person and I don't mean that in height.

To most people, knowing they are right is enough for them, unlike you. Most people accept that there is not one way to play pool, unlike you.

God, I wish you were local cause I'd give you such a whopping on the table.

I bet you'd be screaming like a little girl asking for spots and guess what, I only play heads up, no spots to no one, even when I know the other person is way better. I still play heads up. If I have to be given something in order to win, then guess what, I didn't win totally on my ability. And thats what matters most to me, winning soley because of my skill only.

See those that have to have spots are not true gamblers. True money players play heads up,not asking for any spots. So whenever I hear someone talking about playing for money and what spots they got, I look at them as chickens, as not truely putting there best on the line.

Plus, I believe people wanting spots are just to lazy to improve.

If you can't play heads up, that tells me you are a chciken to truely test your skills and just want another win in the win column.

I've learned the wins come and go.

Oh, I have posted challenge shots pass and guess what NO ONE HAS DONE THEM. Why, cause they ain't got the skills. The only balls they have are the ones they are knocking around of the table.

So, here is one I posted. I caromed the 4 off the 1 into the 5 for the 4 in the side. I did it on the first attempt. This was a challenge to use CTE on this shot. No takers.

Step up....

CueTable Help

 
duckie said:
See those that have to have spots are not true gamblers. True money players play heads up,not asking for any spots. So whenever I hear someone talking about playing for money and what spots they got, I look at them as chickens, as not truely putting there best on the line.

Plus, I believe people wanting spots are just to lazy to improve.

If you can't play heads up, that tells me you are a chciken to truely test your skills and just want another win in the win column.
]



I partially agree with this. When playing someone for money with a spot it can be a barometor for how you are playing. Let's say I do play someone straight up as you say and they slaughter me for some $50 sets for about $500. I know I have a lot of practice and work to do so I hit the table at home.

The next time the person offers me the 6 ball and I end up winning $250 before he quits with wanting to adjust the spot for the next time we play. I could have played him straight up again as you say but sometimes the $ don't necessarily flow with pool players so that is a chunk of change to be putting at risk. I know you could argue well then save up to play again straight up, but I notice at least for me when the spot gets closer to what it should be, that it makes me more eager to jump in the box to play instead of knowing I am just donating money with such a big gap straight up vs this player. I don't want to wait necessarily a year before I am at that level to play him/her. I also (at least for me) like to see the spot get less and less against a player, vs saying I only lost 9-4 instead of 9-1 while still losing money vs possibly winning some back. To each their own I guess. If I had the $ to do what you say, then it probably wouldn't be that big of a deal. A lot of pool players like myself that are "soso" players don't have that kind of money to continually dump straight up to someone over and over until they get better enough to beat them.
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duckie said:
No, the problem is you. Where ever you go, you start a pissing match.

You are just a little person and I don't mean that in height.

To most people, knowing they are right is enough for them, unlike you. Most people accept that there is not one way to play pool, unlike you.

God, I wish you were local cause I'd give you such a whopping on the table.

I bet you'd be screaming like a little girl asking for spots and guess what, I only play heads up, no spots to no one, even when I know the other person is way better. I still play heads up. If I have to be given something in order to win, then guess what, I didn't win totally on my ability. And thats what matters most to me, winning soley because of my skill only.

See those that have to have spots are not true gamblers. True money players play heads up,not asking for any spots. So whenever I hear someone talking about playing for money and what spots they got, I look at them as chickens, as not truely putting there best on the line.

Plus, I believe people wanting spots are just to lazy to improve.

If you can't play heads up, that tells me you are a chciken to truely test your skills and just want another win in the win column.

I've learned the wins come and go.

Oh, I have posted challenge shots pass and guess what NO ONE HAS DONE THEM. Why, cause they ain't got the skills. The only balls they have are the ones they are knocking around of the table.

So, here is one I posted. I caromed the 4 off the 1 into the 5 for the 4 in the side. I did it on the first attempt. This was a challenge to use CTE on this shot. No takers.

Step up....

CueTable Help

Click to expand...

Do you want to BET super large that I can point to at least 10x more examples of YOU starting controversy about aiming with your intolerance for "other" methods to play pool?

I didn't think so.

As for your trick shot, you're full of crap. At least five other people offered to let you set that shot up and try it for as much money as you want to bet and you folded like a cheap tent.

What if someone else had set it up and made it and claimed that they used xyz method? What would you have said to them?

The fact is that you are a hypocrite and a shit stirrer. You have jumped into DOZENS of threads talking about methods of aiming other than GB and told everyone that they are idiots and all that's need is the "arrow". And NOW you're telling people that the "arrow" is not needed and they don't have to imagine a Ghost Ball, they jsut need to "send the cue ball home because it wants to go home". ????????????? Lay off the crack.

I wish I was around you because I swear that you could keep me broke if you could beat me. I know I would never quit you until I had every last penny you could lose. But just as well I'd bet you'd quit after one set.

You might be pretty good. I never said a person can't get good through using GB. But I have a good feeling you are no where close to my level and I will bet my money on my feeling.

So how about we bet this big boy?

Let's go back over the past six month's worth of posts. We will count every time you have jumped into a thread about any aiming method other than GB and how many times I have jumped into threads about GB to campaign for something else.

If you caused controversy by showing intolerance for methods other than GB more than I "put down" GB then you leave AZB forever.

If I showed intolerance, as you claim above, more times then I will leave AZB forever and take all my other identities with me.

I am sure you can enlist plenty of volunteers to help you.

So get busy little beaver and start your list. From now through the last 6 months, or year whatever you like. I am sure that the history bears out that I am right.

I am sure you won't back up your words though.
 
duckie said:
I bet you'd be screaming like a little girl asking for spots and guess what, I only play heads up, no spots to no one, even when I know the other person is way better. I still play heads up. If I have to be given something in order to win, then guess what, I didn't win totally on my ability. And thats what matters most to me, winning soley because of my skill only.

See those that have to have spots are not true gamblers. True money players play heads up,not asking for any spots. So whenever I hear someone talking about playing for money and what spots they got, I look at them as chickens, as not truely putting there best on the line.

Plus, I believe people wanting spots are just to lazy to improve.

If you can't play heads up, that tells me you are a chciken to truely test your skills and just want another win in the win column.
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I missed this gibberish. Do I care what you do? I am sure you are not stupid enough to go challenge SVB to $1000 sets just to test yourself.

What you are describing has nothing to do with the real world and only some macho self-inflating bullshit. People get and give spots to attempt to make the match one where both sides are gambling and not where one side is donating and the other side is stealing. You obviously live in some fantasy utopia poolroom in your head and have never in your life set foot in a real one.

This nonsense you are spewing has NOTHING to do with the topic of the thread and certainly nothing to do with REALITY in a pool room.

Send me your name and address and how much you play for regularly and I will send you a steady stream of players you can test yourself against. They always prefer to play guys like you with more money than brains.

And I guess it never occurs to you that maybe sometimes better players like to give up weight in order to challenge themselves. Nah, such simple logic is too complex for you.

Actually you quote Bruce Lee but have consistently gone against the very concept contained in the quote. So either you are truly clueless OR you are a flaming hypocrite. You choose.
 
You're full of it

duckie said:
[...]
Oh, I have posted challenge shots pass and guess what NO ONE HAS DONE THEM. Why, cause they ain't got the skills. The only balls they have are the ones they are knocking around of the table.

So, here is one I posted. I caromed the 4 off the 1 into the 5 for the 4 in the side. I did it on the first attempt. This was a challenge to use CTE on this shot. No takers.

Step up....

CueTable Help

Click to expand...

duckie:

Personally, I have a high tolerance for some of the stuff posted here. I'd even learned my lesson or three about getting "into it" with certain very strong-willed people. I even learned to avoid those particular topics that get my hackles up when I see how quickly they spiral into the ground (e.g. aiming system threads).

I won't jump into the issue between you and John. That's for you and he to work out, and I've snipped that portion out of your reply above, so that I can focus on a much bigger issue (i.e. one that applies to what this forum is about -- pool and therewith).

You posted that shot, shown above, in another past thread, and you got called out on it in the blink of an eye:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2824853&post2824853

Reason: the shot you show, where the balls lie, is nearly impossible to do because of the carom angles -- those are 90-degree carom angles you're showing, which requires the object ball (the 4-ball in this instance) to be hit extremely hard so it's sliding and "stuns" first off of the 1-ball, and then stuns a second time off the 5-ball into the side. The fact that you claim you made this shot, with the balls laying as shown (and with the cue ball so close to the cushion like that), proves to me you don't know your carom angles. Click on the link I provided above, and the explanation I offered previously is right there.

I'm not an aiming system guy. But I am a 100-ball runner in 14.1 (who also plays some occasional 3-cushion), and I'm calling you out on that one.

Care to explain yourself on that one?
-Sean
 
nsainfreek said:
What’s with people on this forum always calling others out to gamble when they disagree with something the other person said? I really don’t get it. Some guy posts an opinion or thought and someone chimes in and says it’s wrong and to prove it come play me for $5k. If you don’t have the balls to play me then you’re obviously wrong and I am right. I just don’t get how this proves anything except for the fact that you have a testosterone issue and the only proof of logic is gambling. It just seems so immature and juvenile. And when the other person obviously shows no interest in gambling the jerk just keeps trying to goad the them on, pressing the point that the only reason you won’t gamble with me is because I’m right. Some people don’t gamble. Some people don’t want to go out of their way to play someone they don’t know just to show this stranger that their wrong. Some people struggle to make a living and just because they believe they are right doesn’t mean they’re going to risk their family’s food and shelter to prove a point.

I usually roam these forums just trying to pick up new information but every time I see this happen I just roll my eyes and try to ignore the rest of the thread because I know where it’s headed. It becomes a pissing contest. No class or civility in discussion. Just temperamental people. That’s my rant.
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This is a very good post sir,there r a lot of good people here at az that r very knowledgeable and r willing to share their wits,there r also people that will disagree and rant an rave just to give one a bad time(thats not me)if i come across a thread that i dont care about and i cant help out with my knowledge i will just leave it alone,but thats me and i am no where near perfect, hell iam wrong a lot more then i will like to be on certain subjects,but i wont go out of my way to try an ruing anothers day!
 
You shouldn't have an opinion you can't buy! That's how it really works. Say it, back it up or just don't say it.
 
opinion

Mr. Frost is that really your thoughtout comment for this thread? Mr. Barton I read most of your posts and am a little surprised that you seem to think "Want to bet" is supportive of the intelligence or merit of an argument for anything other than one of the CTE threads. Sometimes always wanting be the contrarian can put one in untenable positions. You can't swim in sand.
 
nsainfreek said:
What’s with people on this forum always calling others out to gamble when they disagree with something the other person said? I really don’t get it. Some guy posts an opinion or thought and someone chimes in and says it’s wrong and to prove it come play me for $5k. If you don’t have the balls to play me then you’re obviously wrong and I am right. I just don’t get how this proves anything except for the fact that you have a testosterone issue and the only proof of logic is gambling. It just seems so immature and juvenile. And when the other person obviously shows no interest in gambling the jerk just keeps trying to goad the them on, pressing the point that the only reason you won’t gamble with me is because I’m right. Some people don’t gamble. Some people don’t want to go out of their way to play someone they don’t know just to show this stranger that their wrong. Some people struggle to make a living and just because they believe they are right doesn’t mean they’re going to risk their family’s food and shelter to prove a point.

I usually roam these forums just trying to pick up new information but every time I see this happen I just roll my eyes and try to ignore the rest of the thread because I know where it’s headed. It becomes a pissing contest. No class or civility in discussion. Just temperamental people. That’s my rant.
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Great post. I agree with you 100%.

I think it also goes hand-in-hand with certain players not receiving any respect because they choose not to gamble. The players could be amateur or professional, it does not matter.

I think the belief by some is that there is a lot more at stake when gambling, so if you choose not to gamble and will only play for fun, or in tournaments, then you don't really have any heart.

Many times I have witnessed a sore loser challenge his opponent to "bet something" after he just lost to that person in a tournament. It's their way of saying, "OK, you beat me in this tournament...but let's gamble (translation: play for real) and we'll see who's better".

It's a weak attempt to discredit the other person's win, which also means you are being unsportsmanlike and disrespectful, but hey, this is pool...comes with the territory unfortunately.

How many times have you heard someone say, "I can't believe I lost to that guy in the tournament! I could easily give him the 7 if he ever wanted to gamble some!"

Oh well...
 
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roberthans said:
Mr. Frost is that really your thoughtout comment for this thread? Mr. Barton I read most of your posts and am a little surprised that you seem to think "Want to bet" is supportive of the intelligence or merit of an argument for anything other than one of the CTE threads. Sometimes always wanting be the contrarian can put one in untenable positions. You can't swim in sand.
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You cant swim in shyt either,but i bet he would try!
 
roberthans said:
Mr. Frost is that really your thoughtout comment for this thread? Mr. Barton I read most of your posts and am a little surprised that you seem to think "Want to bet" is supportive of the intelligence or merit of an argument for anything other than one of the CTE threads. Sometimes always wanting be the contrarian can put one in untenable positions. You can't swim in sand.
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I said that offering to bet is supportive of a person's commitment to their position. Scientists offer to bet each other in the same manner when they disagree all the time.

You are also assigning motivation here where none exists. I don't want to contrary to others. I respond to any point that interests me with my thoughts on the subject and if they are contrary to someone else's points then so be it.

The fact is that nearly everyone here only sees the heated discussions and immediately extrapolates that to include all of my communication on this forum which leads them to make comments like, "you always want to be contrary".

By that logic and the presumption that silence equates to agreement then I am far more agreeable due to the overwhelming number of topics that I don't participate in. :-)

However I won't use that point. I will use the point that I participate in a lot of threads with supportive and agreeable comments. In short I am no different than most people in that I pat people on the back when I think that they deserve it, I crack jokes, and I argue when I think something needs to be argued about.

I can be overbearing though and I know it. The art of brevity eludes me. Working on it.

Offering to bet though in the middle of an argument is mostly rhetorical and is really nothing more than offering another point of personal conviction. These offers are made in full knowledge that no one is going to call me on them. It has nothing to do with the amount of money or trying to high-roll the other side (don't tell anyone but there are many many millionaires on this forum and I am not one of them).

In any argument there is almost always a point where someone says "prove it". That's all an offer to bet is, the point where someone says prove and if you believe in your side so much then bet something on it.
 
GADawg said:
+1. Seems like people lacking an intelligent response can only throw down a dare.
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Not really. Sometimes though it gets to the point where you just want to tell someone to shut up and prove it if they are so convinced.

What would be the most intelligent response if I said I could spot Efren 8:4 in one pocket?

A lengthy comparison (short list in my case) of our respective titles or simply to say get up and play?

Or when someone says for example that China is all about slave labor and workers being handcuffed to their machines then it seems no amount of personal on-the-ground testimony to the contrary is enough and at some point you just want to say bet $10,000 and come to China and I will prove you wrong.

I firmly believe that sometimes the most intelligent response is to tell someone to bet on it if they really think that they are right.
 
nsainfreek said:
What’s with people on this forum always calling others out to gamble when they disagree with something the other person said? I really don’t get it. Some guy posts an opinion or thought and someone chimes in and says it’s wrong and to prove it come play me for $5k. If you don’t have the balls to play me then you’re obviously wrong and I am right. I just don’t get how this proves anything except for the fact that you have a testosterone issue and the only proof of logic is gambling. It just seems so immature and juvenile. And when the other person obviously shows no interest in gambling the jerk just keeps trying to goad the them on, pressing the point that the only reason you won’t gamble with me is because I’m right. Some people don’t gamble. Some people don’t want to go out of their way to play someone they don’t know just to show this stranger that their wrong. Some people struggle to make a living and just because they believe they are right doesn’t mean they’re going to risk their family’s food and shelter to prove a point.

I usually roam these forums just trying to pick up new information but every time I see this happen I just roll my eyes and try to ignore the rest of the thread because I know where it’s headed. It becomes a pissing contest. No class or civility in discussion. Just temperamental people. That’s my rant.
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+1. This is one of the best posts I've seen on this forum since I joined.

As far as some of the other comments in this thread, Why Can't We Be Friends ??
 
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richiebalto said:
I heard that JB,just having a little fun JB, nothing personal,have a good nite!
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I didn't take it personally. Was just stating a fact that went along with your point. In fact, if you look at some threads I had to swim a river of virtual shit to try and play some people.
 
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