Cheating in the 8 ball league...

[cuesblues]

Ted does not sandbag. A guy once asks me "Is Ted sandbagging? I replied "No,that's how he really plays"

Yeah right
I went 5-0 last night, not bad in that league.
Don't make me have to take a group pic of all my trophies,
pins, patches, wall plaques, 160 cues, and big leather cases.

Now I have to get ready for Friday night APA at the Holiday Bowl.
See ya tomorrow at Felt, hope the cook is coherent.

 

[scratchs]

When you are 65 years old, a hug from a non family member is a big deal.
And her "Deals" were big :grin:

You kill me..lmao..an yeah hughs from big deals are special,youu had myy wife rolling..

 

[cuesblues]

When you are 65 years old, a hug from a non family member is a big deal.
And her "Deals" were big :grin:

Hey Bruce, come on down to the Holiday Bowl tonight.
It's like 10-minutes from your house.
I'm buying
There are so many sweater girls in that league, I have to take a cold shower BEFORE I get there.
I'll get you a hug from Edna.
She is one hot single Mexican tamale, and she's just about my age too.

 

[mantis99]

If what they did was within the rules, how it that cheating?

Jeff Livingston

Seriously??!! It amazes me that this has to be answered.

 

[chefjeff]

Originally Posted by chefjeff

If what they did was within the rules, how is that cheating?​

Seriously??!! It amazes me that this has to be answered.

So playing by the rules can be cheating?

Be amazed and answer then, please, cuz I don't get this at all.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Big Perm]

...is still rampant, gotta love it! I play on our city's Thursday night league 8 ball league with a team comprised mostly of non pool players. I was in the position to play the last game in each round last night and the sandbagging was blatant and pitiful. Granted, I made it easy for them to throw the games by running out (with one real tough run out involving 3 banks, with 1 severely off angle long rail bank to the corner on the 8 ball for the win - I was pleased with that punch, Brumback would have been proud). Anyway, in every game that they played me, it the outcome of the round had already been decided. In two of the games, they missed balls badly and obviously this was intended.

If you are going to sandbag, i.e. cheat, please at least try to make it appear that you are trying! I refuse to sandbag, and never will. Pool is just a game, and it should be fun to play, not something that one feels compelled to cheat at. Sorry for the rant. I just think that it is poor form, that's all.

Carry on as usual and happy Friday to all...

Don't play in handicapped leagues......in every sport I have EVER played that has a handicapped league, people cheat.......golf, football, basketball, volleyball, pool, darts, baseball, the list is endless......there will ALWAYS be cheaters......half the people on this site and in every one of those leagues, whether vocally or not, actually condone cheating on a regular basis, although they will hide behind phrases and nice little quips about how it's just part of the game.....

If you want to play for fun and laugh at the obvious lack of integrity people have, handicapped leagues can and are fun if you do not take them seriously......if you want a real challenge, play open tournaments and push yourself.....otherwise, just play your best and accept that people will sell their soul for a dollar.....

FYI, I have had a rough day and this is a bit negative, although all true :grin:

 

[KRJ]

Well, you guys can think what you want and google all you want to but the fact is that it is a grey area and no business owner is going to want to be exposed to the cost and money involved. As for many places having cameras look around and I guarantee that you will see a sign saying that the cameras are there. It is not being done without your knowing of it. That is implied consent; by going into said establishment you are consenting to being video taped.

Do you know this from experience or just repeating from what you "heard". Because I"m speaking from experience, and you can videotape someone in any state, in any public location (except bathrooms, locker rooms, dressing rooms, etc. where there is an actual expectation of privacy). There is NO grey area here at all.

Heck, you can be videotaped in your own home or yard, as long as the person doing the shooting was on public way, like the steet or sidewalk. Thus, you can be video taped working out in your home if the blinds are open and you can been seen from the street or sidewalk without "trespassing" on someone elses property to get the "shots"....

Now, if you have a privacy fence in your yard, you cannot climb the tree to videotape because there is an expectation of privacy.

You can follow some into the a gym and tape them while they lift weights, while they drink beer at a bar, while they play softball, while they jog, while they drive, while water skiiing, sunbathing at the beach... and a million other places.... of course, undercover cameras are being used and the persons have no idea they are being taped. And if you think you can't then there are a whole lot of guys in jail for committing workers compensation fraud that must not have had very good criminal defense attorneys.

 

[quadrary]

There are many different strategies when playing 8 ball. Playing safe when you have a duck...is this cheating since you missed on purpose?


Missing a ball on purpose to play safe...is it cheating?

Missing on purpose to try and let the opponent rearrange the balls or break out your tied up balls...is this cheating?

Is it cheating to play a two way shot?

Yes, this is strategy. Or...is this cheating?


You can spin it any way you want. So playing a strategy is cheating?

I used to teach people a long time ago in leagues. I used to tell people--if you are going to run more than three balls in eight ball, you better run out.

Or...make three balls then miss or play safe. I don't think this is cheating.

no actually its bad scorekeeping because all of those except the 2 way should be marhed as defensive shots thereby reducing inning count.

 

[Jeff M]

Nobody on my team actually sandbags. I don't care if other people say they do it. A lot of people who say they sandbag actually are just making an excuse for not being that good. At least that is what I have seen often.

 

[mantis99]

Originally Posted by chefjeff

If what they did was within the rules, how is that cheating?​

So playing by the rules can be cheating?

Be amazed and answer then, please, cuz I don't get this at all.

Jeff Livingston

No! Sandbagging is cheating and classless. It is cheating the handicap system to falsify your playing level and gain an advantage that is outside the design of the system. Why it isn't right is generally considered common sense which is why I posted that it amazes me that the question would arise.

 

[Hungarian]

Because leagues are for people to use their discretionay income for entertainment and competition. It's the spirit and intent of the league in the first place. Sand baggers are asse wipes..

Is it? How can it be?

If they create the handicapping system, what's wrong with using THEIR system to win?

I know it's lowlife behavior and those guys will never amount much as far as being good shooters, but it is within the rules. Why not just change the rules so there's no/little advantage in sandbagging?

rhetorical questions...you don't have to answer.

Jeff Livingston

 

[poolguy4u]

:help:

Is hustling the same as cheating?

I know in Tap League, people are hustling and making money at it.:smile:


At Valley Forge a few years ago, one team won both boards with

basically the same team. Also at least 2 of those players won the singles

too. Just coincidence.

 

[chefjeff]

No! Sandbagging is cheating and classless. It is cheating the handicap system to falsify your playing level and gain an advantage that is outside the design of the system. Why it isn't right is generally considered common sense which is why I posted that it amazes me that the question would arise.

You "argument" is circular.

But thanks for trying. I don't really care, but have gotten such a hard time on this thread I thought I would try to get into the heads of those who think following the league rules is also cheating on the league rules.


Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

Because leagues are for people to use their discretionay income for entertainment and competition. It's the spirit and intent of the league in the first place. Sand baggers are asse wipes..

So it isn't so much cheating as it is violating the spirit of the league.

I might buy that, but it still begs the question of why doesn't the league fix their rules to be in the spirit of all that, too?

Jeff Livingston

 

[OneIron]

So it isn't so much cheating as it is violating the spirit of the league.

I might buy that, but it still begs the question of why doesn't the league fix their rules to be in the spirit of all that, too?

Jeff Livingston

Because the only sure way to fix sandbagging is to ban the sandbaggers. And that cuts into the profit margin.

 

[chefjeff]

Because the only sure way to fix sandbagging is to ban the sandbaggers. And that cuts into the profit margin.

Each player can fix it by leaving those leagues and joining another, such as VNEA, where sandbagging doesn't help.

Problem solved for those so concerned about such things.

Ta Dah!

Jeff Livingston

 

[jackthehat]

Not that I would ever cheat myself because I prefer to be a fair sport. But talking to players who hustle they usually purposely poorly position the white ball in order to leave a harder pot which would been seen as an acceptable shot to miss. Rather than blatantly miss easy shots which obviously will raise suspicion.

But the end of the day George Orwell said

"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war minus the shooting.”

 

[justadub]

Each player can fix it by leaving those leagues and joining another, such as VNEA, where sandbagging doesn't help.

Problem solved for those so concerned about such things.

Ta Dah!

Jeff Livingston

Very simple. IF you live in or near an area that has a variety of league systems in use.

I note how you claim it doesn't happen in VNEA. I find it difficult to believe that any system that has a handicap will not have folks trying to manipulate it.

Better scorekeeping fixes many handicap problems, though it won't eliminate them.

 

[chefjeff]

Very simple. IF you live in or near an area that has a variety of league systems in use.

I note how you claim it doesn't happen in VNEA. I find it difficult to believe that any system that has a handicap will not have folks trying to manipulate it.

Better scorekeeping fixes many handicap problems, though it won't eliminate them.

It CAN happen, but it doesn't help a team in the formats we have. Plus, a team doesn't get as much money back at the end of the year.

The other choice, as others here have said, is to not play leagues that encourage sandbagging (and then attempt to punish it when it happens).

I think it is the time-consuming, SUBJECTIVE method of rating each shot that creates the problem. Even the guy that gave me the red rep does it. I checked a thread he started and in his first post he talked about how he won one night in league and he said that he "probably had x defensive shots---more than were recorded" (but he took the win anyway! and I'm the one ruining pool) The twisted league system steers the players towards this type of"cheating" and then onwards to beatching about it. Hello?



Jeff Livingston

 

[KRJ]

Very simple. IF you live in or near an area that has a variety of league systems in use.

I note how you claim it doesn't happen in VNEA. I find it difficult to believe that any system that has a handicap will not have folks trying to manipulate it.

Better scorekeeping fixes many handicap problems, though it won't eliminate them.

Not really Dub. The ACS system is impossible to sandbag,,, here is the exception. You join the league, and tank the whole season to have a low handicap for next season.... I've yet to find someone to do that. Of course, most folks would not invite you back if you sucked that bad anyways.....so good luck finding a team unless you start your own.

A guy who I played with on a Monday APA league joined my thurs ACS league, (not me team) and is "trying" to sandbag, and I explained it won't help you. Even if you have the round won (we play 5 rounds, each person on your team plays each person on the other team one time, thus one round is five games and the highest total points wins the round)

You get 10 points for a win, plus one point for every ball left on the table by your opponent. The loser just gets one point for every ball he made. Thus the best you can get is 17, 10 for win, plus 7 balls left on table by opponent....

Thus, if you have the round "won" already, it won't matter. Because you can win 5 rounds per night, but as a bonus, the team with the most points overall gets the 6th round. And you can NEVER be sure about overall until the last round... maybe in the 5th if you play a real weak team... but with the large handicap given to the weak teams, sometimes they only need to win only one game in the round to win the round, or team suddenly kicks a few games away and suddenly the overall points is in jeopardy... it happens all the time.

Thus, you just cannot be sure.... because one round could cost you the championship at the end of the year..... too risky... and since the handicaps are 3 seasons worth of scoring.... if you did "sandbag" a few games in a season, it just would not help your average to drop all that much if any, cause it is an exact average.

If you average 40 points per night,,,,, and do that for 2 years... and then shoot a couple of 20 point games... your avg just won't be affected much.

Plus, our league is so strong, (16 teams) with numerous masters, nobody likes losing to anybody.

MY APA buddy is still trying to "work" the system, but he just does not understand you can't. He threw a game to keep his average low since they were going to lose the round anyway, and next week, his average was still the same. So, I asked how did it help him? It didn't, and of course if he shot better, they may have won enough points to win the 6th round, and thus could be the diff between 1st and 2nd,,, heck could be the diff betwen 7th and 8th.... the money payouts change based on place finished...

ABout the only way you can sandbag in our league is thru the One master per team rule.... as there are plenty of guys who play "master level" pool, but they just don't enter tournaments for whatever reason, and thus are never declared a state master player...... and that does suck, and we have been pushing for our league guy to use the "known ability" rule to keep it fair... so no, we are not perfect either, but we know the weakness and are trying to correct it....

It does not mean you can't have fun playing APA,,, heck, I don't even like APA but play it cause it's a mile from my house, and I use it to tune up for my Thursday league...and bunch of nice folks on the team.

I could care less if we win or not... I'll play as hard as I can, but I leave after I"m done shooting, and if the team goes to Vegas or not, matters not to me, cause I can go to Vegas anytime I want with ACS, or BCA and a few others without even qualifiying...just pay my fee and off you go......