Chop-Chop, Savers, and Splits -- Yes, No, Maybe So

[JoeyA]

If any money deals are made, the only one I can justify in my mind is the Saver, because it still pushes the players to play their best. The rest of the money deals allow players to "coast". Those other money deals aren't fair to the sport. The spectators, fans and public in general should be entitled to see players the real fight, not some staged combat.

Personally, I would prefer no money deals of any kind.

To be candid, in the past, I have had amateur and pro players alike to ask me to split the winnings and I have done so, conditionally. I understand that financial conditions dictate needs sometimes and everyone's situation may be different. Although it is seldom that I am ever asked by a pro to split the winnings, it has happened at least on one occasion, I made the condition that if I even think for one second that he wasn't giving his all to the match, the money deal was off. To his credit, he played his heart out and I got lucky. I swear if I thought he hadn't been trying his best, I would have negated the money deal.

So you see, while I don't approve of the chop-chop and I dislike it, under the right conditions (need) I may be persuaded to do otherwise.

That money splitting is a slippery slope. I realize the fans and everyone sweating have a right to see the players perform to the best of their ability or at least the players should be trying to play their best. In my opinion, that doesn't happen most of the time with chop-chop. Is it unprofessional, I have difficulty in labeling it so. Needs are what they are and I sympathize with everyone who is trying to keep their head above water.

 

[CreeDo]

Jam: ah ok, I'm getting it now. It makes sense when put that way. I always want to see players put in maximum effort, I certainly don't want to see a thrown match in exchange for anything.

I can't imagine a tournament where you have to do tax paperwork ahead of time though, it sounds pretty tedious.

 

[JAM]

Jam: ah ok, I'm getting it now. It makes sense when put that way. I always want to see players put in maximum effort, I certainly don't want to see a thrown match in exchange for anything.

I can't imagine a tournament where you have to do tax paperwork ahead of time though, it sounds pretty tedious.

If you ever are fortunate enough to compete in the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour at the $25,000-added event held at the Turning Stone Casino, the players do need to provide their tax payer ID number before the first ball is hit. This all occurs at the players meeting when a paper is filled out. At least that is how it used to be done. I haven't been to one in a few years now.

If you want to collect your dough at the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship, there's a tax form waiting for you in the office that has to be filled out *before* you collect the cheese! :grin:

Most larger tournaments do require this.

 

[cardiac kid]

:wink:

If you ever are fortunate enough to compete in the Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour at the $25,000-added event held at the Turning Stone Casino, the players do need to provide their tax payer ID number before the first ball is hit. This all occurs at the players meeting when a paper is filled out. At least that is how it used to be done. I haven't been to one in a few years now.

Jen,

Do to concerns over having paperwork with player ID and SS numbers floating about at the TS, Mike only requires those players who cash for $750 or over to sign the 1099 paperwork. That occurs at the main tournament desk before payouts. Same with the Super Billiards Expo, BCAPL and ACS Nationals and other CSI events. Only ones I'm familiar with :wink:.

Lyn

 

[elvicash]

Jam any player can claim thier pool income with or without a 1099. If they do claim it and no other income they probably have to pay income tax and self employment tax. The only thing that would do for them is put a little bit into social security the way things are going that SS fund will be broke within twenty years.

Tell Keith to get the COM producers to add a million to a tourney and get it on TV this could be part of the re-release of the movie. That money could be taxed and still have something left for the players.

I do not equate taxation as a solution to most problems including savers at a pool tourney

 

[Wags]

The long view

What are you thoughts on chop-chops, savers, and splits?

A "chop-chop" means the competitors, whether it is one, two, three, or four of them, agree to cut up all monies paid out to them in a tournament in an even split.

A "saver" means one competitor agrees to give his opponent a saver of, say, 10, 15, or 20 percent of what he pockets at the end of the tournament. This saver agreement occurs *before* they begin their match.

Some feel that a split made at the end of the night is okay in regional or weekend tournaments. Oftentimes, these tournaments are held in pool rooms, and there is not enough tables, resulting in long wait times. When this happens, the finals may begin at midnight or the wee hours of the morning on a Sunday. In this instance, competitors may decide to split the money 50/50 and not play the finals match, so they can drive home and get ready for work the next day. This is known as a "split" and occurs at the end of the tournament, which makes this different than a chop-chop agreement made before the tournament begins.

You forgot to list the most egregious event in pool, dumping. I've seen it too many times. I've seen players lose early in a tournament to get a money game later. I've seen it happen to win money off the rail. Heck, some of the "pros" in the IPT events were doing it in the round robin so friends could advance.

For me, splitting and chopping are the same thing. You've just lessened the severity of it by the importance of the event. Using your definitions, there is a definite order of "badness".

1. saver - least bad
2. split
3. chop
4. dump - worst

The Las Vegas fiasco was the worst dump in the history pool. At least, for known dumps. If pool were still handicapped in Vegas can you imagine where the game would be now? Pool had a chance of becoming something when Vegas took a chance on booking bets. Players wrecked that. The Camel Tour had a chance but the players wrecked that. On and on. Note: Organized snooker doesn't seem to have this attitude and their championships get in the sport books everywhere but the United States.

The point is that they are all injurious to the game and help continue to hurt it in the long run. As long as it is allowed, in any form, pool will not go forward. It was rampant in bowling prior to having a strong organization that came down hard on it. Consequently, they have major sponsors, known as a sport and have a clean image. Yes some pro bowlers suffered along the way. Same thing for golf. There seems to be no sense of honor in pool.

Generations of players passed these ideas down to younger players so it keeps going and going. Somehow the bullet needs to get bit.

Personally, I think all promoters, somewhere, maybe CSI or at the US Open, need to listen to the talk and facts and not allow any players involved in this behavior to play. Yes, we would lose a few good players but it would also put others on notice that this (ie: splitting, chopping, dumping) will not be tolerated at any level. If the ABP wants to stand behind those players and boycott an event, yes we might have a year of less than stellar play (Although I think many good and great shortstops will step up and enter because they might have a chance to win it). Those outlawed players will still be probably be allowed in the Dragon Promotion events. Although why any organization would sanction a Dragon Promotion event with even a hint of scandal is beyond me.

This does not shine well for the ABP. CW involved in a chop in two events, MI, RM and RH in one event. CW, MI and RM are all on the ABP board of directors and the ABP has not said anything on the subject. RH is just a member. If CW wanted to bust the ABP, he's doing a good job.

The problem with all four of these, if they are not good at the highest tournament level, then they aren't good at the bottom level either. And, it's just teaching upcoming players things that are simply not acceptable in any other organized sport.

Some organizations believe that if pool would get into the Olympics it would be viewed as a clean, no underhanded business, sport. Won't happen, not until it's cleaned up from the top down and TD's at all levels stop it cold.

 

[Antfarm]

I say play it out. Why wouldn't you want to know whom is the best? I never understood splitting up the winnings. If you do that.... there is no winner.

r,

Greg

 

[BarneyCalip]

WAGS is right on

Until their is honor in Pool, it will always be a "Small time Charlie"

If pool is going to dump then they should dump Charlie Williams and ABP.

Mike Lebron bragging about how they dumped was not cool.

We are our own worst enemy.

No, split's, savers, or chops, "Just play pool Fast Eddie".

I like the tax, idea, but I don't think that we can police ourselves, Barney

 

[thommy]

Winners win, Losers lose.
Yeah, it sux to lose. Get in or get out, your choice,

I have already voted for none of the choices,