CJ Wiley discusses 2-foul 9 ball (aka roll-out or push out)

AF pool guy

AF pool guy

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A lot of folks on here seem to have never heard of 2-foul 9 ball every time it comes up. In the below video CJ Wiley gives a pretty good run-down on what made it special compared to the express version we play today.



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AF pool guy said:
A lot of folks on here seem to have never heard of 2-foul 9 ball every time it comes up. In the below video CJ Wiley gives a pretty good run-down on what made it special compared to the express version we play today.



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Push out it is how I grew up playing. There are various ways to play it. One foul BIH is rediclous on its face. Unfortunately, it's all people know. I will say, for hustling one foul is better. You can manage the game and show less speed, not to mention it is faster.
 
One-foul's use was to spped up tournaments. That's ALL. It wasn't an attempt to make a better game. Two-foul is the way 9b was designed to be played. Lot of strategy, have to make spot shot under heat, more emphasis on shooting than ducking, plus its just more fun. Its too slow for tourn. play but its a far better game overall.
 
HawaiianEye said:
CJ is right.

I grew up playing that way.

The one-foul BIH BS diluted the game.
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garczar said:
One-foul's use was to spped up tournaments. That's ALL. It wasn't an attempt to make a better game. Two-foul is the way 9b was designed to be played. Lot of strategy, have to make spot shot under heat, more emphasis on shooting than ducking, plus its just more fun. Its too slow for tourn. play but its a far better game overall.
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I learned many one pocket shots from push out nine ball. Making one of two frozen spotted balls from behind the headstring (to name one).
 
Great video.

I got one question though. Was it still ball in hand after a scratch even if it was just the first foul? Or was it behind the line ?

One other thing. Am I right that you could push out at any time and it wasn't a foul? You could in theory push out every time at the table?

Also I find it funny where he mentions Earl bringing in the use of the jump cue but now he constantly complains about it . I guess it was fine when it was to his advantage.
 
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Funny that we don't hear too much about modern day pros losing their winnings to roll out hustlers. Maybe the top players now are just a little more "seasoned" and don't get challenged by roll out specialists because the roll out "knowledge" is redundant at the elite level regardless of the ruleset?
 
TrxR said:
Great video.

I got one question though. Was it still ball in hand after a scratch even if it was just the first foul? Or was it behind the line ?

One other thing. Am I right that you could push out at any time and it wasn't a foul? You could in theory push out every time at the table?

Also I find it funny where he mentions Earl bringing in the use of the jump cue but now he constantly complains about it . I guess it was fine when it was to his advantage.
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A scratch was behind the line. Also many played you threw down the next ball if it was behind the line. Some played you would spot it. You could push out anytime. The other player can take the shot or make you shoot. Some played any two and some played by the same player.
I prefer any two.

There were different ways to play. In the south a lot of black rooms I played in played you could keep making the guy shoot till he made a legal shot or you liked the shot. Never a BIH.
 
Swighey said:
Funny that we don't hear too much about modern day pros losing their winnings to roll out hustlers. Maybe the top players now are just a little more "seasoned" and don't get challenged by roll out specialists because the roll out "knowledge" is redundant at the elite level regardless of the ruleset?
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Akin to Steve Davis being the greatest safety player in snooker that ever lived and ever will but his safety game wouldn't stand up against the top amateurs in 2022.

Intersting video for sure and it's good to get a first hand account of how it was but it gets a little bit selly towards the end.
 
Swighey said:
Funny that we don't hear too much about modern day pros losing their winnings to roll out hustlers. Maybe the top players now are just a little more "seasoned" and don't get challenged by roll out specialists because the roll out "knowledge" is redundant at the elite level regardless of the ruleset?
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What is not redundent is a players special skills. I used to play Richie Ambrose and he would push out into hard cuts. He could spin in anything. You had to take the shot because you could not let him shoot.

Same with a good banker. They push out to banks.
 
middleofnowhere said:
What is not redundent is a players special skills. I used to play Richie Ambrose and he would push out into hard cuts. He could spin in anything. You had to take the shot because you could not let him shoot.

Same with a good banker. They push out to banks.
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My point is - set up a series of matches with roll out rules between a Shaw, SVB or Filler and a roll out specialist and the latter is dead meat. I like the stories and I like the sound of the game but the modern elite player has all of those skills anyway.
 
Swighey said:
My point is - set up a series of matches with roll out rules between a Shaw, SVB or Filler and a roll out specialist and the latter is dead meat. I like the stories and I like the sound of the game but the modern elite player has all of those skills anyway.
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Even with all those amazing skills, they will still have no problem snookering a player to get a cheap BIH.
The ligitimit knock on push out is a player can make a bad shot either position or snookering themselves, and just push out. They don't get punished really for the mistake.
 
Swighey said:
Funny that we don't hear too much about modern day pros losing their winnings to roll out hustlers. Maybe the top players now are just a little more "seasoned" and don't get challenged by roll out specialists because the roll out "knowledge" is redundant at the elite level regardless of the ruleset?
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Agreed. It is a non issue for any non-banger.

IMO, two reasons for pushing:
one, you can't see the ball;
b) you prefer a different shot.

Neither is your opponent's problem. Your shot...shoot.
 
Swighey said:
Thems the rules. I'm sure the old timers were just as cheap when they were playing Texas Express.
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My poor choice of words. Could you imagine golf where if your opponent missed his putt you get to move your putt half the distance closer. Ball in hand for any pro means an automatic win. The penalty is too high.
 
It's a game where the best player usually wins. Sometimes tho, the better shooter is not as good as the player that rolls out Better. It's kinda like playing heads up poker I'd guess.
 
middleofnowhere said:
Even with all those amazing skills, they will still have no problem snookering a player to get a cheap BIH.
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middleofnowhere said:
The ligitimit knock on push out is a player can make a bad shot either position or snookering themselves, and just push out. They don't get punished really for the mistake.
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The requirement for a shot is contact with object ball and something going to rail. Failure to meet those requirements is a foul. There are no cheap or expensive shots and 'cheap BIH' is bar banger chatter.

And the second part...yeah. Agreed and that happens as often as a player missing and leaving an accidental safe for opponent.
 
Black-Balled said:
The requirement for a shot is contact with object ball and something going to rail. Failure to meet those requirements is a foul. There are no cheap or expensive shots and 'cheap BIH' is bar banger chatter.

And the second part...yeah. Agreed and that happens as often as a player missing and leaving an accidental safe for opponent.
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Your last line speaks against one foul BIH. A player misses and becomes the favorite to win.
 
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