CJ Wiley discusses 2-foul 9 ball (aka roll-out or push out)

I can't get the link to post, but Buddy Hall gives a pretty good explanation of these rules.

On youtube the video is named: billiards derby city classic with Buddy Hall 1

The video is 9:55 long and he starts talking about this at 2:45.
 
I grew up playing this type of nine ball, but I've never fully bought into the notion that the better player was more likely to win in the old format. I think that it favored the straighter shooter more than today's format, but to me, there's a difference between the terms "straighter shooter" and "better player."

The skills that make you a great player today are a little different than back in the day. Kicking, jumping and defense are more important in today's type of nine ball than that played by the previous generation. Two-way shots are more important today than in the past, as the near risk-free shots we've come to associate with guys like Efren and Alex would have paid fewer dividends when opponents could push out after such shots.

Today's game requires a slightly different skill set and needs to be considered in a different light. To me, the better player is the one with the optimal blend of skills, not just the one that shoots straightest.

I, for one, am glad that the old way has gone away and that there's no indication of its rebirth anytime in the imaginable future. For me personally, today's brand of nine ball is far more interesting, both to play and to watch.
 
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I, personally, never having played the old way, seem to favor the OLD WAY. I think everything is INTRIGUING!! For example, whether someone will shoot or roll out. What shots a person "is scared of" etc....Definitely adds a different dynamic.
 
Bigkat said:
I, personally, never having played the old way, seem to favor the OLD WAY. I think everything is INTRIGUING!! For example, whether someone will shoot or roll out. What shots a person "is scared of" etc....Definitely adds a different dynamic.
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Its a great way to play. What you said is spot on. Finding out what your opponent does/doesn't like is big when pushing out. Also have to shoot spot shots, often for the $$. Its really not that much slower than TE. I've gotten a few at the 'hall to try it and all so far have liked it.
 
TrxR said:
Great video.

I got one question though. Was it still ball in hand after a scratch even if it was just the first foul? Or was it behind the line ?

One other thing. Am I right that you could push out at any time and it wasn't a foul? You could in theory push out every time at the table?

Also I find it funny where he mentions Earl bringing in the use of the jump cue but now he constantly complains about it . I guess it was fine when it was to his advantage.
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way back then there were no jump cues
but earl learned to do it with his full cue

what you hear now from earl
is he hates JUMP sticks
 
ShootingArts said:
As usual, cj's video was entertaining. Only small nit, I think he got a bit tangled up explaining three way shots while driving. Two way you are trying to make the ball or play safe, pretty standard even today. The three way shot includes playing shape on the next ball, not playing a safety on it too. No point in playing safe on it when you have already played safe on the current ball if you missed it. If you made it, you want to be able to shoot the next ball yourself.

Another third part is looking into the future and planning your opponent's run based on what you know about them. Your "safety" may be several shots ahead in another player's run. Maybe you just want to let them be shooting when a low percentage mess has to be dealt with. There you have a safety that your opponent got themselves into, but you saw it coming before your last shot. Playing a decent chess player I sometimes had three or four situations triggered by the same move. They would easily avoid a simple pin or split but when there were three or four developing on the table at the same time sometimes part of the trap slipped by until too late. Pool can be much the same way. Even better, sometimes the other player can see they are headed into trouble but doesn't have a way out! I liked those brain fryers to put pressure on my opponent.

Hu
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I tend to believe CJ knows exactly what he talking about considering his years of play.
 
Dave714 said:
I tend to believe CJ knows exactly what he talking about considering his years of play.
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CJ definitely does, but I got confused on that also. Hu’s description of 3-way shot was my understanding of what it means also, but thats not saying much. I never played old 2 foul style , but it sounds good & I would like to…
 
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I grew up on push out, but I think the best version of 9 ball is Texas Express with the "Grady rule" that if you miss a shot and accidentally leave your opponent snookered, he has the option of making you shoot again. A variant of that allows for one called "two way shot" a rack, but otherwise you have to call a safe shot in order to avoid having to shoot again after you snooker your opponent.

I like the "Grady rule" because it keeps all the positive parts of Texas Express (safety play and kicking ability) while at the same time taking "lucky safes" out of the mix. Since 90% of the luck in rotation games involves "lucky safes" rather than "lucky shots", it removes most of the luck from 9 ball without having those endless loops of push out / safe shot / push outs / safe shot that so often came up in the days of push out.
 
This thread brings back some good memories and sort of makes me sad I pretty much quit pool in the 90's for 3C.

In the 70's and 80's when I took up the game in Carbondale, IL push out was the only rules for the most part. Of course money games let in all kinds of various rules for the match.
I remember hooking up with a guy to play a game and after I rolled out he picks up the CB and shoots. I was like WTF. I didn't even know the rules had changed. That moved me further from pool. Didn't seem right.

Used to really enjoy 9ball. I got lucky lately with a pool hall opening about 3 miles from my home. I play by myself since I feel I'm learning pool all over again but when there, I practice 9ball.

One thing I never mastered back then was where to roll to. Just a hotshot punk back then.
Now I'm just over the hill.
 
Tennesseejoe said:
Just for information...What is your estimated success with that shot?
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When I'm playing regular I either make or place the second ball in the string close to hole 7/8 times out of 10.
It's one pocket... so making the shot isn't the priority all of the time. Placing the ball close works great if you can
get the cue ball behind something for your opponent to deal with or at least make it a long distance take out shot
that he can easily mess up and leave you a run.
 
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