Clear Ferrule Finally Installed

[gregcantrall]

I see a post or two that expose ignorance of the playing character of ivory, both in the ferrule and joint. Ignorance is simply a lack of knowledge or experience. My experience comparing ferrules came in the 1980s.
My ferrule experience exposed a different feel in the hit that was due to the hardness or flexibility of the ferrule material. A McDermott had a softer feel than a Meucie. Ivory felt similar to a Meucie but perhaps a little heavier and or harder. My taste favorite is ivory. The joint material can effect the feel of the hit in a similar manner. Stainless joint feels crisp and an ivory joint has a more lively feel.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Never understood the brass thing! Maybe because the balls are smaller and lighter, the tips are usually between 11 and 12mm it doesn't effect as much?
I guess if installed correctly you'd never have to change it out for the life of your shaft?
So many questions....so few answers.

The brass snooker ferrules have relatively thin walls and are short. Typical diameters are more like 10mm.

I have seen a 6mm snooker tip but the player was a 400 equivalent and must have wandered off into the weeds on his own. I wouldn't trust that shaft for a power draw shot.

The innovation in snooker ferrules is titanium.

 

[Bob Jewett]

.... its main purpose is to keep the people that like to grind their chalk around and around the tip until they've drilled a hole deep enough that they start grinding the shaft (or ferrule) that's below it. I've seen hard ferrules turned hourglass shaped by this. ...

I call them The Borer People. Some of them are proud of their heritage. Strange.

If you look at the chalk box in a typical pool hall, it will tell you that most players don't know how to chalk. Sad.

On the other hand, if I'm without my personal chalk, the bored chalk is just what I want as it has a nice edge to chalk with. Better for me than brand new chalk.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

I call them The Borer People. Some of them are proud of their heritage. Strange.

If you look at the chalk box in a typical pool hall, it will tell you that most players don't know how to chalk. Sad.

On the other hand, if I'm without my personal chalk, the bored chalk is just what I want as it has a nice edge to chalk with. Better for me than brand new chalk.

To be fair on that point, chalk design was traditionally made with a divot and suggested that boring was correct.

I have an idea for chalk in a lip-balm type holder. It would only be about 15mm diameter. I think it should eliminate boring and reduce transfer to hands.

Plus, the holders could be made really cheaply, or very expensive and customized. Make the chalk removable and replaceable.

 

[gregcantrall]

If you look at the chalk box in a typical pool hall, it will tell you that most players don't know how to chalk. Sad.

That would be most players that don't carry their own chalk. Kind of like the community darts available for those that don't have their own.
Casual players come in many varieties. Chalk drillers is an interesting variety. Some can be coached others seem to take pride in the creation of chalk dust.

 

[gregcantrall]

To be fair on that point, chalk design was traditionally made with a divot and suggested that boring was correct.

I have an idea for chalk in a lip-balm type holder. It would only be about 15mm diameter. I think it should eliminate boring and reduce transfer to hands.

Plus, the holders could be made really cheaply, or very expensive and customized. Make the chalk removable and replaceable.

You could be onto something.
An interesting idea.

 

[rexus31]

I don't understand why. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done.

 

[Bob Jewett]

The brass snooker ferrules have relatively thin walls and are short. Typical diameters are more like 10mm. ...

On a related note, I see that for English 8-ball (with a 2-inch or smaller cue ball) the recommended tip size is down to 8mm.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Having something you like is one thing but to say it’s superior is another.

Well, of course it is. The two remarks are totally separate, different and stand on its own merit.
Anyone ever read a sports column? If you have, you should know it reflects the writer’s opinion.

So stating what you like, believe or have learned from experience or taught by other experts in
cue making really comes down to having an opinion which is the basis others use to disagree.

Liking something is merely one’s opinion; stating it is superior is obviously a different opinion. So when
anything is different from something else, then it is not the same which is a self-evident, inarguable fact.

I completely concur with your post. Stating something is superior is different and not the same as liking it.
Ergo, everyone is entitled to think, believe, espouse or endorse anything, even if they happen to be wrong.

When that occurs, the credibility of their remarks, or opinions, suffers and subsequently, loses any significance.
I stand by what I wrote. I believe this to be true. Famous cue makers have explained this to me and I trust them.

 

[West Point 1987]

Both of my Cynergy ferrules cracked and had to be replaced...they were over 7 years old, and the PVC material had gotten brittle and broke down, cracking laterally. On a whim, I had my cue guy use G10 for the new ferrules (no more soft plastic). I know that sounds crazy, but they actually work really well! The deflection should have gone through the roof, but I can't see any difference. They hit pretty hard, so I've had to adjust for that, but I really like it so far.

 

[ntlgntbng]

Very much appreciate the input and opinions everyone has provided so far. Just wanted to expand a bit more on the comments around density and absorption. I don't know much about the science behind the details, so thank you in advance for your forgiveness when it comes to my ignorance here.

I was under the assumption that polycarbonate is quite literally the hardest material that you can use (practically speaking of course). In other words, I don't believe ivory is harder than polycarbonate, nor does it absorb the energy from what I've seen. I can apply a massive amount of English on whitey compared to an almost identical set up with the only major difference being the ferrule. That's why I decided to move forward with getting my main playing shaft updated with a polycarbonate ferrule instead of the XTC ferrule.

With that being said, isn't that enough of a test to conclude that there is absolutely a benefit to using this material over anything else, and actually has some practicality behind it other than purely going for the looks? Or, would you chalk it up to still being inconclusive due to a number of potential factors that weren't considered yet?

Since I have multiple shafts available to test with, I will be recording some videos and uploading them. If there are any suggestions or requests for different shots you'd like me to perform with each one, please let me know. I really want to make sure I am giving everyone a chance to be involved here since you guys know a lot more than me about this stuff! I mean that with all genuine sincerity!

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Many composite are harder than most polycarbonate. Ivory is definitely harder than PC. Proof? You are scratching the PC with chalk, ivory doesn't do that.

Why is hardness good? All you need is for the plastic to be harder and more rigid than maple. On a cf shaft that is all moot and what you need is sometime that hold up to impact, in which case there is something to be said for PC.

PC absolutely absorbs impact, that is one of the main reasons PC is used, that is why they make bulletproof windows out of it.

If your claims about the motivation are true, you have chosen the wrong material.

 

[Bob Jewett]

.... I can apply a massive amount of English on whitey compared to an almost identical set up with the only major difference being the ferrule. ....

I'm pretty sure this is false. Can you demonstrate it?

 

[DaveK]

"Hardness" ... a complex concept often misunderstood in general discussions. Here is a link to a reasonable explanation of:

hardness
strength
toughness
stiffness

What is the difference between hard, tough, strong and stiff materials? Can someone please give me definitions of these terms and examples of materials which show these properties? | Socratic

I think this is a brilliant question (I ask my students something similar!) Off we go ... Hardness is the ability to resist indentation (or scratching if the indented material moves.) We can test relative hardness by pressing one material into another, the softer material is indented. The scales...

socratic.org

Many if not all of these, along with density, may contribute to the goodness or badness of any specific ferrule design/application. Not sure if the coefficient of restitution may also play into play (the leather tip may dominate the rebound).

I certainly admire the experimentation of the OP. I also know that I can miss balls with about any ferrule out there.

Dave <-- spent some wonderful time in the geology lab scratching rocks with rocks testing their relative hardness

 

[ntlgntbng]

Many composite are harder than most polycarbonate. Ivory is definitely harder than PC. Proof? You are scratching the PC with chalk, ivory doesn't do that.

Why is hardness good? All you need is for the plastic to be harder and more rigid than maple. On a cf shaft that is all moot and what you need is sometime that hold up to impact, in which case there is something to be said for PC.

PC absolutely absorbs impact, that is one of the main reasons PC is used, that is why they make bulletproof windows out of it.

If your claims about the motivation are true, you have chosen the wrong material.

Great points, sir. I didn't even think about the BP windows and such. I guess I was more/less thinking about 'impact absorption' being how I would describe decreasing the energy transfer from this PC ferrule vs. other ferrules since I have been seeing the opposite results so far.

I'm pretty sure this is false. Can you demonstrate it?

Hey Bob, yes sir! The other kielwood shaft is still being worked on, so I don't have two Kielwood shafts to demonstrate side-by-side, but this is what I can do:

Example 1: Extreme English on simple shots using top-right (approx. 2pm position) using a Meucci 97-15 with a Red Dot shaft with traditional ferrule and Kamui Clear Black SS tip and Taom V10 green chalk.

Example 2: Extreme English on simple shots using top-right (approx. 2pm position) using a Predator SPWU with an Outlaw Kielwood shaft with the clear PC ferrule and Bulletproof AIM SS tip and Taom V10 green chalk.

Let me know if that is a close enough comparison for you? I know there are some differences in the shafts, but they are still wood at the end of the day. It's really the ferrule and transfer of energy we are after, right?

 

[ShortBusRuss]

Great points, sir. I didn't even think about the BP windows and such. I guess I was more/less thinking about 'impact absorption' being how I would describe decreasing the energy transfer from this PC ferrule vs. other ferrules since I have been seeing the opposite results so far.



Hey Bob, yes sir! The other kielwood shaft is still being worked on, so I don't have two Kielwood shafts to demonstrate side-by-side, but this is what I can do:

Example 1: Extreme English on simple shots using top-right (approx. 2pm position) using a Meucci 97-15 with a Red Dot shaft with traditional ferrule and Kamui Clear Black SS tip and Taom V10 green chalk.

Example 2: Extreme English on simple shots using top-right (approx. 2pm position) using a Predator SPWU with an Outlaw Kielwood shaft with the clear PC ferrule and Bulletproof AIM SS tip and Taom V10 green chalk.

Let me know if that is a close enough comparison for you? I know there are some differences in the shafts, but they are still wood at the end of the day. It's really the ferrule and transfer of energy we are after, right?

Ehh... I don't think all wood shafts are the same. The shaft can "flex" during the hit, in the direction of the applied english, which I have to think will have an effect on how well english is transferred, and the amount of total overall force applied to the cue ball, versus being eaten up by the flexing of the shaft.

An old school "whippy" Meucci shaft, versus a Predator 314-2 shaft are not gonna spin the same...