Cloth Speed: New Table vs Refelted Table

F

FeelDaShot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Whenever Diamond sets up tables for an event (i.e. SBE) the tables play extremely fast. Whenever a table gets re-felted it never plays even half as fast as the newly setup Diamonds.

Anybody know why?

All things being constant: Diamond Table, Simonis Cloth, Table Location, Humidity., Etc...

I figure it either has to be that Diamond is stretching the cloth much more than other mechanics or the newly manufactured cushions are extra bouncy and slow down by the time the cloth needs to be replaced.

As far as stretching the cloth goes, I've stretched it on my home table until it felt like it was going to tear and it still was only about 80% of the speed Diamond gets.

What's the secret I'm missing here???
 
Are referring to the exact table or just another diamond? Could be the type of cloth or the cushions used. It can sometime be hard to determine if a ball comes off the cushions fast and therefor roll on the surface faster or if the slate felt is actually faster. Couple deferent factors determine speed. Including humidity, clean balls etc. on my personal table when I clean/brush the felt and polish the balls the table probably rolls 10% faster.


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FeelDaShot said:
Whenever Diamond sets up tables for an event (i.e. SBE) the tables play extremely fast. Whenever a table gets re-felted it never plays even half as fast as the newly setup Diamonds.

Anybody know why?

All things being constant: Diamond Table, Simonis Cloth, Table Location, Humidity., Etc...

I figure it either has to be that Diamond is stretching the cloth much more than other mechanics or the newly manufactured cushions are extra bouncy and slow down by the time the cloth needs to be replaced.

As far as stretching the cloth goes, I've stretched it on my home table until it felt like it was going to tear and it still was only about 80% of the speed Diamond gets.

What's the secret I'm missing here???
Click to expand...
Curious as to how you arrive at the 80% figure? I don't think rail rubber would lose so much resilience in one cloth change. Is there a way to actually measure speed difference in two tables? Kinda got me curious now.
 
FeelDaShot said:
Whenever Diamond sets up tables for an event (i.e. SBE) the tables play extremely fast. Whenever a table gets re-felted it never plays even half as fast as the newly setup Diamonds.

Anybody know why?

All things being constant: Diamond Table, Simonis Cloth, Table Location, Humidity., Etc...

I figure it either has to be that Diamond is stretching the cloth much more than other mechanics or the newly manufactured cushions are extra bouncy and slow down by the time the cloth needs to be replaced.

As far as stretching the cloth goes, I've stretched it on my home table until it felt like it was going to tear and it still was only about 80% of the speed Diamond gets.

What's the secret I'm missing here???
Click to expand...

Hmmm, might just be in your head?
I have a 9ft Diamond Pro. Bought it bran new with Simonis 860.
It took me a while to get used to the speed, it was much quicker than the Brunswicks with old cloth I was used to.
Now it has Simonis 860HR and it seems just as fast to me.
I think any table that has good rails, if you put new cloth on it, it will play like new again.
 
No matter what anyone tells you in reply to your question- I can tell you from over 30 years experience with tables that even if you install identical cloth, rails, rail height, pool balls, and have reasonable climate controls in place - tables still play at unique speeds, I would deduct, using basic logic, that the one other variable could be that SLATES are more unique to each table than people realize- that is - table slates may indeed vary in surface smoothness or the ability to perfectly level out each slate may vary.

I have experienced the same degree in slowness over many years that I once owned high quality home tables installed by some of the best mechanics - no one could ever really explain the difference, so I am thinking that has something to do with each table having unique slate characteristics. I could be totally wrong, but it is the only variable that I can imagine.
 
Johnnybgood said:
Are referring to the exact table or just another diamond? Could be the type of cloth or the cushions used. It can sometime be hard to determine if a ball comes off the cushions fast and therefor roll on the surface faster or if the slate felt is actually faster. Couple deferent factors determine speed. Including humidity, clean balls etc. on my personal table when I clean/brush the felt and polish the balls the table probably rolls 10% faster.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
Click to expand...

I am talking about the exact same table. I've seen halls that get brand new diamonds and they play lightening quick. Over the next year or so they get dirtier and broken in and slow down. After refelting with the same Simonis cloth I would think that the original speed could be restored however it always plays slower.
 
garczar said:
Curious as to how you arrive at the 80% figure? I don't think rail rubber would lose so much resilience in one cloth change. Is there a way to actually measure speed difference in two tables? Kinda got me curious now.
Click to expand...

I am just pulling 80% out of my ass, sorry lol. There is a way to measure table speed, it has to do with setting up a small ramp and seeing how far the cue ball rolls after it runs down the ramp.
 
tucson9ball said:
Hmmm, might just be in your head?
I have a 9ft Diamond Pro. Bought it bran new with Simonis 860.
It took me a while to get used to the speed, it was much quicker than the Brunswicks with old cloth I was used to.
Now it has Simonis 860HR and it seems just as fast to me.
I think any table that has good rails, if you put new cloth on it, it will play like new again.
Click to expand...

Who knows, maybe it's all in my head (wouldn't be the first time lol). But the speed difference between a freshly refelted Diamond and the Diamonds they setup at big events like the Expo are night and day to me.
 
If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that the cloth is stretched tighter at the factory than whoever recovered the tables later.

Thats the only logical answer that I can come up with.
 
FeelDaShot said:
Whenever Diamond sets up tables for an event (i.e. SBE) the tables play extremely fast. Whenever a table gets re-felted it never plays even half as fast as the newly setup Diamonds.

Anybody know why?

All things being constant: Diamond Table, Simonis Cloth, Table Location, Humidity., Etc...

I figure it either has to be that Diamond is stretching the cloth much more than other mechanics or the newly manufactured cushions are extra bouncy and slow down by the time the cloth needs to be replaced.

As far as stretching the cloth goes, I've stretched it on my home table until it felt like it was going to tear and it still was only about 80% of the speed Diamond gets.

What's the secret I'm missing here???
Click to expand...
Should be no difference in table speed between a new table and the same table refelted in the future, assuming the same cloth and if it's installed the same way by the same installer. Some days the same table may play faster or slower, depending on the weather and the humidity in the room. How clean the cloth is kept, and how clean the balls are, particularly the cue ball, can be the two other factors affecting cloth speed.
 
FeelDaShot said:
I am talking about the exact same table. I've seen halls that get brand new diamonds and they play lightening quick. Over the next year or so they get dirtier and broken in and slow down. After refelting with the same Simonis cloth I would think that the original speed could be restored however it always plays slower.
Click to expand...

If you don't stretch the cloth as tight, it will be slower. Or you are just not remembering how fast it was vs new. The brain is not a very good judge of things for most people unless you have a perfect memory. At work I have people telling me they have had the same computer for 5,6, + years when the made on date shows 3 years ago.

Are all the tables using the same rails? Same amount of use? You were also talking about the same table but then started to compare a refelted table to ones at events like SBE which is not the same table.
 
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FeelDaShot said:
Now I feel crazy. Hasn’t anyone else experienced this?!?
Click to expand...


What I have experienced, as to table speed, is that occasionally at an event you'll get balls fresh out of the polisher or even a brand new set of balls. That can make a huge difference.

Lou Figueroa
 
FeelDaShot said:
... There is a way to measure table speed, it has to do with setting up a small ramp and seeing how far the cue ball rolls after it runs down the ramp.
Click to expand...
It doesn't require a ramp. Shoot a lag shot that barely doesn't get to the second rail and time the roll from the far cushion until the ball stops. Square that number (of seconds), multiply by 2 and that gives you the speed of the cloth: 7 seconds, 7*7 = 49, 49*2=100 (more or less). A speed of 100 corresponds to the equivalent of a 1% uphill slope slowing the ball down on a perfectly smooth surface.

Slow cloth is maybe 80, fast carom cloth is 200.

Here is Dr. Dave's resource page on cloth speed: http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/table.html#speed
 
Bob Jewett said:
It doesn't require a ramp. Shoot a lag shot that barely doesn't get to the second rail and time the roll from the far cushion until the ball stops. Square that number (of seconds), multiply by 2 and that gives you the speed of the cloth: 7 seconds, 7*7 = 49, 49*2=100 (more or less). A speed of 100 corresponds to the equivalent of a 1% uphill slope slowing the ball down on a perfectly smooth surface.

Slow cloth is maybe 80, fast carom cloth is 200.

Here is Dr. Dave's resource page on cloth speed: http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/table.html#speed
Click to expand...

Doesn't require a ramp, but does require the ability to lag! I should get it right after 30 or 40 attempts.
 
GideonF said:
Doesn't require a ramp, but does require the ability to lag! I should get it right after 30 or 40 attempts.
Click to expand...
If you don't quite reach the second cushion, you can apply a simple correction: divide by the fraction of the full nose-to-nose distance you traveled. Or, you could use a ramp to do the lag.;)

A home-made ramp can only compare tables. The timing lets you make an absolute measurement.
 
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