cnc lathe
- Thread starter the breed
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With live tooling and y axis on a lathe, they are great for making complex ports in modern 2 stroke cylinder liners or making pistons in 1 machine and other difficult to produce geometry parts.
Still no reason that if you had one not to use it for cues.
Live tooling is expensive to buy initially, but once you have it, it becomes really useful.
But any 4 axis set up, has capability that only your imagination becomes the limit.
Neil
Still no reason that if you had one not to use it for cues.
Live tooling is expensive to buy initially, but once you have it, it becomes really useful.
But any 4 axis set up, has capability that only your imagination becomes the limit.
Neil
Gary Campbell
Registered
Guys...
I would like to say hello on my first post here. My day job is production manager and R & D for a company that manufactures 3 and 4 axis CNC machines ranging in size from 2' by 3' table top hobbyist to 20' plus commercial lengths. I have done R & D, programming, and design built application specific machines for multiple CNC mfgr's.
My hobby, in my small home shop, is to design and build one or two small CNC machines, usually with rotary axes, per year, with the funds from one (when sold) financing the next. There is a lot of myth surrounding this type of machine and I try to debunk the ones I can with the "show you" instead of "tell you"
I was directed here by a cuemaker friend that uses a very small machine with a 4th (rotary) axis to cut inlays. I came here for two reasons. One to assist by giving information to you on what CAN be done, and possibly how it is done. The second would be to collect info for what features would be needed to build a machine that would be attractive to cuemakers. This means, that along with trying to be helpful, I do have a long term commercial interest. I will not let that interest hold back accurate information.
I currently am working on a machine that was built with game call makers in mind. It has full wood lathe capability, with the addition of CNC backnife cutting, and on center and off center machining with a gantry mounted electrospindle (industrial router head). There is also a flat table that is used to cnc cut inlays and box parts, along with full 4 axis milling. A lot of this does not apply to cue makers, but you seem to have very similar needs. Inlays, tapers, rings all are not difficult with CNC 4th axis, and are simply a product of a software package that you would wish to purchase and learn.
So to the original poster, I would answer yes, more than possible. And... apologize for the length of this post. Here are a couple videos of drastically different operations being done on a single machine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPp1itlsbnI&list=UUl3fUyY3Nq1H5E9wEAzld2Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yznJrzd730&list=UUl3fUyY3Nq1H5E9wEAzld2Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-5_ZMINDEU&list=UUl3fUyY3Nq1H5E9wEAzld2Q
I would like to say hello on my first post here. My day job is production manager and R & D for a company that manufactures 3 and 4 axis CNC machines ranging in size from 2' by 3' table top hobbyist to 20' plus commercial lengths. I have done R & D, programming, and design built application specific machines for multiple CNC mfgr's.
My hobby, in my small home shop, is to design and build one or two small CNC machines, usually with rotary axes, per year, with the funds from one (when sold) financing the next. There is a lot of myth surrounding this type of machine and I try to debunk the ones I can with the "show you" instead of "tell you"
I was directed here by a cuemaker friend that uses a very small machine with a 4th (rotary) axis to cut inlays. I came here for two reasons. One to assist by giving information to you on what CAN be done, and possibly how it is done. The second would be to collect info for what features would be needed to build a machine that would be attractive to cuemakers. This means, that along with trying to be helpful, I do have a long term commercial interest. I will not let that interest hold back accurate information.
I currently am working on a machine that was built with game call makers in mind. It has full wood lathe capability, with the addition of CNC backnife cutting, and on center and off center machining with a gantry mounted electrospindle (industrial router head). There is also a flat table that is used to cnc cut inlays and box parts, along with full 4 axis milling. A lot of this does not apply to cue makers, but you seem to have very similar needs. Inlays, tapers, rings all are not difficult with CNC 4th axis, and are simply a product of a software package that you would wish to purchase and learn.
So to the original poster, I would answer yes, more than possible. And... apologize for the length of this post. Here are a couple videos of drastically different operations being done on a single machine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPp1itlsbnI&list=UUl3fUyY3Nq1H5E9wEAzld2Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yznJrzd730&list=UUl3fUyY3Nq1H5E9wEAzld2Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-5_ZMINDEU&list=UUl3fUyY3Nq1H5E9wEAzld2Q
Thats awesome!
Couple of questions
First, how do u like the Clearpath motor
Second, are the steppers on all the typical axis your preferred motors or just the ones the budget allowed for?
RBC
Deceased
my question is about the spindle drive.
It appears that you have chosen to use the clearpath motor as the spindle motor, but still use a stepper for positioning. Why not just use the clearpath for both?
Royce
Gary Campbell
Registered
LGSM3...
I really like the ClearPath motors. I was surprised at the power it had from a NEMA34 footprint.
Those steppers are 600+ ozin. Coupled with 5mm pitch screws they have plenty of torque. It takes close to 300 # on the scale to fault them. I do have 900 and 1200 ozin version I could replace them with if needed. I've got them on 80V 8+Amp drives so that I can upgrade if needed, but so far no need.
RBC...
The ClearPath servos are available in 2 versions. I have the MC (motion control) the other is SD (step & direction). You must choose! You will be hard pressed to find 1 solution that works well for both. Especially when you wish (or need) to spin the lathe at higher rpm.
I really like the ClearPath motors. I was surprised at the power it had from a NEMA34 footprint.
Those steppers are 600+ ozin. Coupled with 5mm pitch screws they have plenty of torque. It takes close to 300 # on the scale to fault them. I do have 900 and 1200 ozin version I could replace them with if needed. I've got them on 80V 8+Amp drives so that I can upgrade if needed, but so far no need.
RBC...
The ClearPath servos are available in 2 versions. I have the MC (motion control) the other is SD (step & direction). You must choose! You will be hard pressed to find 1 solution that works well for both. Especially when you wish (or need) to spin the lathe at higher rpm.
RBC
Deceased
Gary
I would just choose the SD version and run it as such. Mach3 will output SD for both position and spindle rotation. If you're operating as a mill, you may need to setup a macro for swap axis, but that's only if you need to switch out within a program.
If you're operating in lathe mode, I think it handles this more seamlessly.
The clear path motors are more than capable of both the power and speed you need.
Royce
Gary Campbell
Registered
Royce...
"I would just choose the SD version and run it as such. Mach3 will output SD for both position and spindle rotation."
I searched long and hard and tested numerous products from multiple suppliers to finally end up with the dual motor configuration that I have. I have not heard of any product that will accomplish both independent 2000 headstock rpm and have sufficient holding torque (with sub .001 resolution @ diameter) for positional indexing use.
In order to get the holding torque and positional accuracy that I wanted, I am using 4.8:1 reduction on the stepper. At 800 steps per motor revolution and that reduction ratio 7680 steps per revolution are required. At 2000 headstock rpm 256,000 pulses per second would be required. I don't believe that Mach is capable of that pulse rate. Nor am I aware that it is capable of fixed rpm independent spin of the rotary axis while allowing 2 or 3 additional axes to be controlled simultaneously for either my backnife or off center, maybe even top down cutting for lets say a light pass operation like tapering.
The company I work for is OEM with Teknics, so was able to "try before I buy" a number of different models of ClearPath servos. I was not able to find, nor was the factory tech rep able to recommend one single unit that would do as you describe. Have you tested this? How about a part number? Going to a single motor will lower the price of my machine, and some day make it more saleable.
"I would just choose the SD version and run it as such. Mach3 will output SD for both position and spindle rotation."
I searched long and hard and tested numerous products from multiple suppliers to finally end up with the dual motor configuration that I have. I have not heard of any product that will accomplish both independent 2000 headstock rpm and have sufficient holding torque (with sub .001 resolution @ diameter) for positional indexing use.
In order to get the holding torque and positional accuracy that I wanted, I am using 4.8:1 reduction on the stepper. At 800 steps per motor revolution and that reduction ratio 7680 steps per revolution are required. At 2000 headstock rpm 256,000 pulses per second would be required. I don't believe that Mach is capable of that pulse rate. Nor am I aware that it is capable of fixed rpm independent spin of the rotary axis while allowing 2 or 3 additional axes to be controlled simultaneously for either my backnife or off center, maybe even top down cutting for lets say a light pass operation like tapering.
The company I work for is OEM with Teknics, so was able to "try before I buy" a number of different models of ClearPath servos. I was not able to find, nor was the factory tech rep able to recommend one single unit that would do as you describe. Have you tested this? How about a part number? Going to a single motor will lower the price of my machine, and some day make it more saleable.
RBC
Deceased
Gary
As far as mach3 goes, you can setup both a spindle and an a axis. When you need to switch between the 2 you use the swap axis function. I had a small mill with an indexer that I used for both an indexer and a spindle. I'll have to go back and look up the programming to refresh my memory. Jim Babcock, MC2, helped me set it up by working out all the programming details.
As far as the motors go, the enhanced versions have 6400 encoder counts, which give a pretty decent index resolution. At 1 to 1 you've got under .001 degrees. At what kind of diameter do you need to the .001"?
Mach3 is limited to 100k kernel speed. According to Jake the cslabs controller can provide up to 4meg CPS. I've read up on it and it looks right to me. I think it would work great.
Royce
Last edited:
Gary Campbell
Registered
Royce...
Thanks for the info. Any chance you could send Jim's contact info to me via email or pm? I think that depending on the actual rpm you run on your mill, the dual setup could work, but I haven't been able to make it happen myself. I have dumped Mach as an OS in favor of WinCNC due to Mach being unstable and I wasn't able to get anywhere near the pulse count that I can with WinCNC. That said, there is a substantial hardware cost associated with WinCNC. You get what you pay for, I guess.
Thanks for the info. Any chance you could send Jim's contact info to me via email or pm? I think that depending on the actual rpm you run on your mill, the dual setup could work, but I haven't been able to make it happen myself. I have dumped Mach as an OS in favor of WinCNC due to Mach being unstable and I wasn't able to get anywhere near the pulse count that I can with WinCNC. That said, there is a substantial hardware cost associated with WinCNC. You get what you pay for, I guess.
RBC
Deceased
Gary
Here's a link to the latest turn key method of dong this.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vBLuF_F2_qs
ill probably at rhe shop later tody and can get you more information.
Jim can get real busy, so dont want to volunteer him, but ill talk with him this week.
royce
Gary
thanks for the info and welcome to the forum. Hope you will hang around once in a while even though your not a cue guy. I do have a million questions for you and hope you wont be bothered by my curiosity.
Now that you have experience with the Teknic motors and are an OEM for them do you have any plans on using them for an entire machine? Reason I ask is that I plan on using them on a 4 axis cue machine and a much larger 5 axis machine machine which will be used for lite machining on large parts.
Also curious about wincnc. Are you restricted to there pci hardware and if so how many axis are you limited too? Can you mod the screensets like Mach? Is it possible to close the loop in the software other than typical spindle feedback?
What do you think is expensive for your machine? you may be surprised at what cuemakers pay for alot less machine
Jake
thanks for the info and welcome to the forum. Hope you will hang around once in a while even though your not a cue guy. I do have a million questions for you and hope you wont be bothered by my curiosity.
Now that you have experience with the Teknic motors and are an OEM for them do you have any plans on using them for an entire machine? Reason I ask is that I plan on using them on a 4 axis cue machine and a much larger 5 axis machine machine which will be used for lite machining on large parts.
Also curious about wincnc. Are you restricted to there pci hardware and if so how many axis are you limited too? Can you mod the screensets like Mach? Is it possible to close the loop in the software other than typical spindle feedback?
What do you think is expensive for your machine? you may be surprised at what cuemakers pay for alot less machine
Jake
Gary, the win cnc looks like a nice package. I am concerned withe the PCI hardware. The trouble with technology is that it make hardware like that obsolete fast. Although I have to admit that I have no desire to own a PC that has an operating system past Windows Xp.
If you really have a desire to make a cnc for this industry you will need to scale it down. What would sell IHMO would be a simple 4 axes machine that would set in a bench or table top. I believe that the spindle is the most important part of the machine. Unlike Jake most cue makers here are broke with small budgets.
Jim
If you really have a desire to make a cnc for this industry you will need to scale it down. What would sell IHMO would be a simple 4 axes machine that would set in a bench or table top. I believe that the spindle is the most important part of the machine. Unlike Jake most cue makers here are broke with small budgets.
Jim
Gary Campbell
Registered
Jake...
I see no reason not to frequent here, as long as the group will have me. I think the target market for the ClearPath line is stepper upgrade. I have access to their servo products, so at present, nothing planned. They are priced, and not surprisingly perform, midway between good steppers and servos, so I imagine there is a good market. My interest is stronger towards the MC series over the SD.
WinCNC requires that you use its hardware, at least the PCI card and daughterboard. I use their I/O boards too, even with other CNC OS's because they are bulletproof. In the OEM configuration the limit is 6 axes at a max 75kps pulse rate per axis. Screens are fully user configurable and the only limit is that the position indicators (DRO) are not configurable in the current releases. I am not sure about your closed loop question, but since there are 30 inputs and 20 outputs, all totally configurable, I am sure there are few limitations.
This machine configured as is, is just under $15K
Jim...
There is a PCI-ex version around the corner. The driver and OS compliance seems to take longer than producing hardware. I agree with XP and its low overhead being one of my favorites, but only for the 32 bit CNC OS's. The WinCNC controller runs great in a 64 bit environment, you can throw some extra ram at it and just let the PC live as a life support system for the controller. Once a file has been loaded you are free do whatever you wish with the PC.
I agree on the smaller budget items, and have made dozens of them. But for now I am not looking to generate sales as much as I am to prove or disprove features. I sometimes take requests tho!!
Royce...
I am aware and have seen Jim's stuff before, just didn't make the name connection. He is an evil genius to the nth degree :thumbup:. His (and others) pulse generator is the reason that I said to you that Mach wouldn't output the pulse rate required. Also, if you watch the rpm, you can see that tho it is ample for milling or metal work, a woodworker may not look twice at a lathe that doesn't spin 2000 rpm. And there is always that everpresent stepper duty cycle of 50%. fixed rpm runs at high rpm kills em... every time. (don't ask how many)
Although the control is nowhere near as elegant as Jim's, WinCNC has a built in pulse generator that I have used to push steppers on my little dyno... till they die!.
I see no reason not to frequent here, as long as the group will have me. I think the target market for the ClearPath line is stepper upgrade. I have access to their servo products, so at present, nothing planned. They are priced, and not surprisingly perform, midway between good steppers and servos, so I imagine there is a good market. My interest is stronger towards the MC series over the SD.
WinCNC requires that you use its hardware, at least the PCI card and daughterboard. I use their I/O boards too, even with other CNC OS's because they are bulletproof. In the OEM configuration the limit is 6 axes at a max 75kps pulse rate per axis. Screens are fully user configurable and the only limit is that the position indicators (DRO) are not configurable in the current releases. I am not sure about your closed loop question, but since there are 30 inputs and 20 outputs, all totally configurable, I am sure there are few limitations.
This machine configured as is, is just under $15K
Jim...
There is a PCI-ex version around the corner. The driver and OS compliance seems to take longer than producing hardware. I agree with XP and its low overhead being one of my favorites, but only for the 32 bit CNC OS's. The WinCNC controller runs great in a 64 bit environment, you can throw some extra ram at it and just let the PC live as a life support system for the controller. Once a file has been loaded you are free do whatever you wish with the PC.
I agree on the smaller budget items, and have made dozens of them. But for now I am not looking to generate sales as much as I am to prove or disprove features. I sometimes take requests tho!!
Royce...
I am aware and have seen Jim's stuff before, just didn't make the name connection. He is an evil genius to the nth degree :thumbup:. His (and others) pulse generator is the reason that I said to you that Mach wouldn't output the pulse rate required. Also, if you watch the rpm, you can see that tho it is ample for milling or metal work, a woodworker may not look twice at a lathe that doesn't spin 2000 rpm. And there is always that everpresent stepper duty cycle of 50%. fixed rpm runs at high rpm kills em... every time. (don't ask how many)
Although the control is nowhere near as elegant as Jim's, WinCNC has a built in pulse generator that I have used to push steppers on my little dyno... till they die!.