Coaching

A

av84fun

Banned
In another thread, the issue of coaching came up and I think it is important enough to have its own thread.

How many athletes in major sports don't have coaches...on virtually a day-to-day basis? Answer...zero.

In tennis and golf, most of the top players have their own personal coaches.

In football, practically every position has its own coach. But I am not aware that many top pool players regularly avail themselves of the services of coaches and certainly a tiny fraction of the top amateurs and practically no league players do.

IMHO there would be a TON of benefit to both players and instructors if some systematic method of providing and obtaining coaching services could be worked out.

If there are 4 members of a given APA/BCA league team and if an instructor was retained to spend just two hours on league night coaching for $50 and hour, then for $25 per player A LOT of good would be done.

Not every week because we all have other uses for our $25 but once a month would be a no brainer.

There are a lot of other ways to go about the process of providing/obtaining coaching. Any ideas?

Regards,
Jim
 
Coaches

The idea you come up with is interesting. If allowed id like to ad my opinion. Lets start at the pro level. I dont see how a coach would benefit them much. For the most part they know what they are doing wrong and usually correct it in a hurry. There is also the problem of advice. Different players approach the game differently and see different things. What i might think is the right way to execute a shot might not be to your taste. An example would be like i might feel more comfortable drawing the ball and you might like follow. The last point is having a coach at the amatuer level is tough. For one just finding enough people serious about improving there game would be a challenge. Ill leave you with this and its honestly how i feel. You can be taught how to play a shot or how to get shape, however there is no subsitute for table time. Instruction or not without it very hard to improve ones game.
 
Tiger Woods thought he was good enough to part ways with his coach and go it alone....His game declined (albiet he was still really good) until he realized it was beneficial to keep seeing a coach.


The problem is ameatueres and even professional players can not afford to continue seeing coaches on a regular basis.

Some people are lucky in that they get mentored while while they are up and comming and learning the game... Dennis Hatch comes to mind.

The key in pool seems to be to surround yourself with the best possible talent you can find to play against and hope that some of it rubs off.......

(Some of that has changed in that now you can get a lot of information via the web that was in the past not readily shared in pool rooms)
 
Interesting thought. As I recall, the players in the IPT events were allowed to have a cornerman to be tableside with them during their matches. Quite a few of them took advantage of the option.

As for league night, at least in the APA, only a member of a player's team can coach them during a match. Because of handicap limits, I don't get to play every week in league, but I'm there as a coach during every match. The rest of the team seems to appreciate it.

Pool players start out playing on their own, where football, baseball, and most other sports generally have some kind of coach even at the early stages. Maybe pool players don't think about the benefits, maybe some egos get in the way. It's hard to say why, but I can say that the majority of my students are mid level league players who want to move up, or higher level players who really understand that they can get that edge over the other highly ranked players by taking lessons.

Steve
 
storke said:
The idea you come up with is interesting. If allowed id like to ad my opinion. Lets start at the pro level. I dont see how a coach would benefit them much. For the most part they know what they are doing wrong and usually correct it in a hurry. There is also the problem of advice. Different players approach the game differently and see different things. What i might think is the right way to execute a shot might not be to your taste. An example would be like i might feel more comfortable drawing the ball and you might like follow. The last point is having a coach at the amatuer level is tough. For one just finding enough people serious about improving there game would be a challenge. Ill leave you with this and its honestly how i feel. You can be taught how to play a shot or how to get shape, however there is no subsitute for table time. Instruction or not without it very hard to improve ones game.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your views. Re: pro pool players not using coaches, IMHO the main reason is that can't afford them. I offer in evidence the well known fact that virtually every pro athlete in every major sport, from Tiger Woods on down DO use coaches.

I don't believe that pro pool players "know what they are doing wrong" any more than Tiger does. Their "errors" are just terribly minor compared to the rest of us...but then we don't have to beat the best players on the planet every weekend either.

And as far as different players approaching shots differently you are of course, correct. However, the role of a "coach" is different than an "instructor" in some very fundamental ways. A great coach at the pro levelo will know what is YOUR best approach not try to teach you another approach.

When Tiger decised to make fundamental changes in his swing, he went and got a differenct coach.

But as for amateurs at the leage level, there might be more "instruction" than "coaching" because there are very, very few league players that have the breadth and depth of knowledge as the top instructors do.

I agree with you 1000 percent that there is NO substitute for table time...both in practice and in match play. There are very, very few champion players who "learned it all" by themsleves...including Mosconi and those who think they can reach the top pro levels without learning from others...one way or the other...will learn the hardest lesson of all.

Regards,
Jim
 
BRKNRUN said:
Tiger Woods thought he was good enough to part ways with his coach and go it alone....His game declined (albiet he was still really good) until he realized it was beneficial to keep seeing a coach.


The problem is ameatueres and even professional players can not afford to continue seeing coaches on a regular basis.

Some people are lucky in that they get mentored while while they are up and comming and learning the game... Dennis Hatch comes to mind.

The key in pool seems to be to surround yourself with the best possible talent you can find to play against and hope that some of it rubs off.......

(Some of that has changed in that now you can get a lot of information via the web that was in the past not readily shared in pool rooms)
Click to expand...

TOTALLY correct. But this is not the Depression era when many of our heros came up in the game.

There are GREAT instructors who will spend an entire day...and then some...with students for $500 or so and there are few who can't save up that kind of money without terrible sacrifice.

THOUSANDS of them can afford to go to Vegas every year and I'll bet ya a dime that not 50% of them have EVERY had a lesson from a top instructor...in fact, 80% is probably a better guess.

Then, I'll bet ya a quarter that 9 of every 10 league players will improve AT LEAST one rank point due to taking top quality instruction and will do so in half the time it would take them to slug it out on their own.

But the issue is coaching, not instruction and the same dynamic prevails.

It would be an interesting experiment of some top instructor would take it on as a marketing project to work an hour or two a month with a league team comprised of 4-7 rankings...and see what the team does and how their rankings improve at the end of a season.

Regards,
Jim
 
pooltchr..."Because of handicap limits, I don't get to play every week in league, but I'm there as a coach during every match. The rest of the team seems to appreciate it."

I bet they do. How long have you been doing that and have you kept any data on how the team average handicap has improved since you have been providing coaching?

Regards,
Jim
 
av84fun said:
Re: pro pool players not using coaches, IMHO the main reason is that can't afford them.
Click to expand...

Most of the coaches/instructers I know either are pros currently or are former pros. They use it as a way to make extra money. Who would the pros go to if they are all relying on each other?
 
lodini said:
Most of the coaches/instructers I know either are pros currently or are former pros. They use it as a way to make extra money. Who would the pros go to if they are all relying on each other?
Click to expand...

Niels Fiejen takes lessons from Bert Kinister. Bert tapes those lessons and sells them. The tapes are interesting because as good as Niels is he struggles with some of the things that Bert wants him to do. Neils even admits that some of the stuff is harder than it looks and it will make him a better player.
 
lodini said:
Most of the coaches/instructers I know either are pros currently or are former pros. They use it as a way to make extra money. Who would the pros go to if they are all relying on each other?
Click to expand...

There are several BCA Advanced and Master instructors and other retired or semi-retired pros who could be great coaches.

But my discussion idea was more related to serious amateurs...league teams etc.

In structured lesson environments, the student will often play VERY differently than in a match play environment.

I have certain MUST DO keys...for example completing a FULL back stroke and executing a smoothly accelerating forward stroke. In practice, I will do exactly that 200 shots in a row.

But under pressure...say when playing with a few top pros who are friends of mine...I get down 5-3 and I hear "Jim, you're short stroking again"!!!

That's just one key...but I can recall driving home after getting knocked out of a tournament and realizing that I didn't execute one of my keys THE WHOLE NIGHT!

We call it "being out of stroke" but most really good amateurs know exactly how to stroke. What is happening IMHO is that they are simply neglecting some one thing...sloppy pre-shot routine...forgetting to adjust the entire route when you fall out of line...stabbing at shots that worry you, slight head moves on the tough shots...tons of things that cause us to play below our speed.

But a coach could spot that stuff in a heartbeat. Top pros in virtually all major sports are not dumb...and they use coaches routinely.

I'm sure that expense is the major obstacle.

But the absence of coaching in pool vs. the univeral acceptance of it in all other major sports just occured to me and I thought it would be an interesting topic of discussion.

Thanks for all views posted so far.

Regards,
Jim
 
Having knowledgeable coach watch you during a match can be helpful, but what you're describing can be done by yourself at the end of each stroke. When you miss your shot, if you stay down in the finish position, you can analyze what part of your mechanics broke down or if you simply aimed incorrectly. You can then make immediate changes to correct your mistakes.
 
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av84fun said:
There are several BCA Advanced and Master instructors and other retired or semi-retired pros who could be great coaches.

But my discussion idea was more related to serious amateurs...league teams etc.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, you are right... I work with an instructor who I call my coach and he is a retired pro. And I pay him $25 an hour, which is nothing. But that's really where I was coming from with my question. Would the pros in today's game (who some of them charge $75-$100 an hour to give lessons to others) actually pay someone else more to coach them? Makes me wonder how much Neils pays his coach... since, as we've discussed on here ad nauseum, pro pool players don't make much money. Seems like it would be hard to make this very reasonable suggestion a reality. (though you are right, it would be ideal) It all goes back to money, right?
 
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av84fun said:
pooltchr..."Because of handicap limits, I don't get to play every week in league, but I'm there as a coach during every match. The rest of the team seems to appreciate it."

I bet they do. How long have you been doing that and have you kept any data on how the team average handicap has improved since you have been providing coaching?

Regards,
Jim
Click to expand...

I've been doing it for several years. I haven't kept any records, so I can't offer specifics. What I can say is I can offer the same information to everyone on my team, and some will see improvement while others won't. The difference is whether or not they want to learn.
I give them "instruction" on the practice tables, but "coaching" during the matches. What I really like is when I can coach one of my students, since we can communicate very effectively...I can tell them "Sam 2, 4 speed with 2 tips of bottom" and they know exactly what to do.

Steve
 
lodini said:
Absolutely, you are right... I work with an instructor who I call my coach and he is a retired pro. And I pay him $25 an hour, which is nothing. But that's really where I was coming from with my question. Would the pros in today's game (who some of them charge $75-$100 an hour to give lessons to others) actually pay someone else more to coach them? Makes me wonder how much Neils pays his coach... since, as we've discussed on here ad nauseum, pro pool players don't make much money. Seems like it would be hard to make this very reasonable suggestion a reality. (though you are right, it would be ideal) It all goes back to money, right?
Click to expand...


I have coached pro players for a minimal fee in the past.For me, its all about guiding them to achieve their goals, not the money.
 
av84fun said:
But the absence of coaching in pool vs. the univeral acceptance of it in all other major sports just occured to me and I thought it would be an interesting topic of discussion.

Thanks for all views posted so far.

Regards,
Jim
Click to expand...

Keep in miind that 'many' non team sports do not allow coaching during competition. Golf ,Tennis , Bowling etc.

Of course a good Coach is nearly essential to maximum performance with only a few exceptions. :)
 
Blackjack said:
I have coached pro players for a minimal fee in the past.For me, its all about guiding them to achieve their goals, not the money.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it's all about the money for the coach. I am saying that for us struggling pool players, it's another $50 an hour or so on top of table time, equipment, tournament entry fees, etc. The money may be the reason a lot of people don't resort to using instructors.
 
lodini said:
I'm not saying it's all about the money for the coach. I am saying that for us struggling pool players, it's another $50 an hour or so on top of table time, equipment, tournament entry fees, etc. The money may be the reason a lot of people don't resort to using instructors.
Click to expand...

True, and I understand that completely, which is why I work with them on payment. Payment doesn't always have to come in the form of money, it comes in the form of recommendations, splitting room costs, etc. I've applied several different methods that are designed to meet their individual needs. If I charged $50 an hour or a session I would not have had the opportunity to work with some of the players I have worked with. Its a trade off - sometimes you need to scarifice as much as they do to have them achieve their goals - its worth it.
 
Blackjack said:
True, and I understand that completely, which is why I work with them on payment. Payment doesn't always have to come in the form of money, it comes in the form of recommendations, splitting room costs, etc. I've applied several different methods that are designed to meet their individual needs. If I charged $50 an hour or a session I would not have had the opportunity to work with some of the players I have worked with. Its a trade off - sometimes you need to scarifice as much as they do to have them achieve their goals - its worth it.
Click to expand...


I have a pogo stick, some frozen Turkey Necks,a shoping cart with one wheel missing and four aspirin with a small amount of pocket lint. Can we work something out?
 
Fragged said:
I have a pogo stick, some frozen Turkey Necks,a shoping cart with one wheel missing and four aspirin with a small amount of pocket lint. Can we work something out?
Click to expand...

What kind of rims do you have on that shopping cart?

:p
 
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