Competing with the APA

[lorider]

What percent does the APA pay back?
May be 30?
If you tried that in a house league you would be lynched.
Win a trip to Vegas get a few hundred and entry to tourney. Still need to,pony up a grand yourself.
How much kickback do they get for bringing in a bunch of fish to the casino? Would be shocked by the amount.

Who thing is a joke

Start your own leagues. Payout strong and forget this corporate crap.

Ok....had a chance to look up some more payouts.

25,000.00 for first place 8 ball team. 15,000.00 for second...didn't bother looking farther down.

15,000.00 for 9 ball team first place...7,000.00 for second.

5,000.00 for scotch doubles first place....just for comparison... Bcapl scotch doubles 1,500.00 for gold first place and 2,000.00 for platinum. For some reason the page I found had all the payouts for singles were blank.

Sooo.... You can pay 6.00 a match to play bcapl scotch doubles all year and win 2,000.00.or pay 6.00 a match all year and win 5,000.00 in apa.

 

[SBC]

And just to clarify... That 15,000.00 first place prize money was for each skill level bracket. 2-7. ...6 brackets total paid out 15,000.00 each.

It is a gigantic pyramid scheme. Teams all over the country playing 15 weeks and one guy gets 10k. They make that pretty fast. If they pull anything under 40% I would be shocked.

 

[lorider]

Last night we played our league and finished up at about 9:15. 4 man teams played on two tables.

That's pretty quick... Just curious. I assume you play each opponent on the other team once. That 4 racks each for 4 players.

I play spa double jeapordy. That's 8 and 9 both each night with 8 played on one table and 9 on the next table . I played 8 racks off 9 ball before I reached my total to win the match. I was fortunate to play pretty good and win my 8 ball match 4-1 in a 4-4 race. That's a total of 12 racks played and I'd 8 ball had went hill - hill it would have been 15 racks total.

I.have 2 more 5/6's on my team and they could easily play a total of 12-15 racks a night also.

So to use worse case scenario the 3 od us could play a total of 45 racks of 8 ball and 9 ball combined. the other 2 low level players racing to 2 could play 6 racks of 8 and 6 racks of 9 which would total up to 57 racks of 8 and 9 ball in one night. Damn ! .... When you think about it....getting done in 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 hours aint too bad.

 

[lorider]

It is a gigantic pyramid scheme. Teams all over the country playing 15 weeks and one guy gets 10k. They make that pretty fast. If they pull anything under 40% I would be shocked.

Read my post above yours where I gave more figures for team payouts.

How can I be a pyramid scheme if it is full of sandbaggers' purposely keeping their skill.levels low.....a hck of a bunch more that are not interested in ever improving and is chock full of people that have been 3's for 15 years or more as so many on here have claimed. Seems to reason if all that's true that no one ever goes goes up and as a whole result it should be pretty much stagnant league.

I know for a fact that my league operator spent more than 30,000.00.last year sending players to Vegas.

 

[Dan_B]

I play on Mondays, bca,
its has been napa many years and the last few years bca also,
we play the 5 man 1 game, 25 games, I'm usually home by 10 - 10:30, starting in that 7:15ish time.

First time I've seen it, this past Monday, yesterday, APA had just posted a teams
forming sign out front. The only time I here of anything apa is about some crazy 8 ball rule.

Looking at mike pages post, 32 games in 2 1/2 hrs is smoking right along, pretty quick, that's strong players that came to play I suspect, 5 mins a game?
The reason BCA formed here was because of the format, round robin.

 

[chefjeff]

Last night we played our league and finished up at about 9:15. 4 man teams played on two tables.

Two tables, imho, ruin the evening.

It takes away the team aspect that should shine, re the difference between apa and the other leagues.

Spectating is an important part of the team experience. Without that, it isn't the same.



Jeff Livingston

 

[fishpool]

Switch to ACS

I still wonder why leagues even sanction with BCAPL any longer. American CueSports Alliance (ACS) has the same process for sanctioning, encourages the same formats, their Nationals is at the Tropicana in the friendlier dates of May...and you get more benefits for only $10 sanction fee per player annually instead of the BCAPL $15/player. And it's administered by the old BCA national league system administrators who grew the BCA Natls (not the "BCAPL Natls) in Vegas, unlike the current "BCAPL" administrators whose Championships is less than half the size of what it used to be.

And you're not sanctioned with the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) - the real "BCA" - that no longer has a league system; you are sanctioned with "BCAPL." "BCAPL" sued the "BCA" in 2008 to be able to keep the initials "BCA" in their "BCAPL" name. Go ahead and ask "BCAPL" if their "BCA" initials stand for anything. They'll respond - No...they don't."

And I bet you think you're using "BCA" rules of play. If you scratch on the break in 8ball, you can place the cue ball anywhere on the table. If you are using that rule, you are NOT playing by "BCA" rules; you're playing "BCAPL" rules. Really....check it out: The Billiard Congress of America ("BCA") is now strictly a trade association, but it still publishes a commercial rulebook you can buy in most billiard retail stores. The "BCA" follows the world-standardized rules that ACS follows - the official rules established by the WPA, the world-governing body for the sport - and the rule "if you scratch on the break, you place the cue ball BEHIND THE LINE." So...."BCA" rules are behind the line on the break;" "BCAPL" rules are "anywhere on the table."

The BCAPL has been using smoke and mirror branding tactics for many years now, and it's a major reason so many players and leagues who used to attend the "BCAPL Nationals" no longer attend. And a lot of them are joining the ACS when they do the research.

Check out www.americancuesports.org. Either way, good luck with your league!

 

[sbpoolleague]

I still wonder why leagues even sanction with BCAPL any longer. American CueSports Alliance (ACS) has the same process for sanctioning, encourages the same formats, their Nationals is at the Tropicana in the friendlier dates of May...and you get more benefits for only $10 sanction fee per player annually instead of the BCAPL $15/player. And it's administered by the old BCA national league system administrators who grew the BCA Natls (not the "BCAPL Natls) in Vegas, unlike the current "BCAPL" administrators whose Championships is less than half the size of what it used to be.

And you're not sanctioned with the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) - the real "BCA" - that no longer has a league system; you are sanctioned with "BCAPL." "BCAPL" sued the "BCA" in 2008 to be able to keep the initials "BCA" in their "BCAPL" name. Go ahead and ask "BCAPL" if their "BCA" initials stand for anything. They'll respond - No...they don't."

And I bet you think you're using "BCA" rules of play. If you scratch on the break in 8ball, you can place the cue ball anywhere on the table. If you are using that rule, you are NOT playing by "BCA" rules; you're playing "BCAPL" rules. Really....check it out: The Billiard Congress of America ("BCA") is now strictly a trade association, but it still publishes a commercial rulebook you can buy in most billiard retail stores. The "BCA" follows the world-standardized rules that ACS follows - the official rules established by the WPA, the world-governing body for the sport - and the rule "if you scratch on the break, you place the cue ball BEHIND THE LINE." So...."BCA" rules are behind the line on the break;" "BCAPL" rules are "anywhere on the table."

The BCAPL has been using smoke and mirror branding tactics for many years now, and it's a major reason so many players and leagues who used to attend the "BCAPL Nationals" no longer attend. And a lot of them are joining the ACS when they do the research.

Check out www.americancuesports.org. Either way, good luck with your league!

Our league dual-sanctioned with ACS and BCAPL for a few years. We did so because of the nicely-timed May ACS Nationals (which, by the way, were purposely scheduled to overlap the old May BCAPL event @ Riviera so as to screw with the BCAPL). We no longer sanction with the ACS. It has nothing to do with the ACS. For all intents and purposes the ACS is a clone of the BCAPL, at $5 less per year. Their national tourney is well-run. The CompuSports app makes it easy to follow the action. I like the concurrently run events (9-ball singles / doubles on the weekend and 9/8 ball teams during the week). The price is right. The doors to the tourney room are just a few paces away from the bathrooms, bar, and smoking area. The Tropicana is a fine casino, and it's on the strip. We decided not to sanction with the ACS simply because after two years, there was absolutely no interest in our league to play in their nationals.

I have felt from the beginning (2004) that the ACS argument against the BCAPL is without merit. "Big Bad Mark Griffin" had the audacity to purchase the league and disband the league's board of directors. Well, if there is one thing we have learned in the last 14 years is that Mark Griffin has done nothing but an excellent job promoting professional and amateur pool. The BCAPL rules are by far the most comprehensive (and best) pool rule set in the world. The BCAPL has also adopted and promoted the world's best pool ranking system, FargoRate.

It wasn't Mark's fault that the Riviera closed. Clearly, the choice of the off-strip Rio and the switch to July for their Nationals were decisions that negatively affected the event. I think the switch in month was the worse of those two changes, but that will all change again next year when the BCAPL World Championships switch to the Feb-Apr time frame.

Having played in both the ACS and BCAPL Vegas events, I can wholeheartedly recommend (if you can't play both) the BCAPL event. The payouts are much more deep in the BCAPL. The BCAPL has almost triple the number of tables. The BCAPL uses Diamond tables, which may or may not be better for you vs the Valley tables used by the ACS. The BCAPL now offers four sub-divisions of their 8-ball singles and team events; more than the ACS offers. And the BCAPL subdivisions are actually based on quantifiable data (Fargo ratings). The ACS basically takes the league operators word for it when deciding where to place players.

We all know that the BCA and the BCAPL are completely separate animals, and frankly, we don't care. The BCAPL is awesome. The people that run it are awesome. Their rules are awesome. Their Vegas event is awesome. And there is nothing wrong with the ACS either.

 

[DblGonzo]

Where do you play? Wouldn't happen to be goodtimez or 6 pockets in Huntsville or Decatur al?

6 Pockets in Decatur.

 

[DblGonzo]

6 Pockets already gives free pool to league members.

Thanks for the reply

 

[DblGonzo]

The BCA is moving their Vegas national event in 2020 to Feb or March.

 

[DblGonzo]

Got news for you my friend......in most areas bcapl 8 ball is also a points based game. Not saying any one is lying but we never got through by 9:30 when I played bcapl. I could see it with 3 man teams but not 5 players ...unless every one is running out from every where.
Normal starting time has always been 7:30 around here in every league. Getting through in 2 hours just does not seem feasible.....not saying its impossible.

Just recalled......we always had a chance problem finding our players when it was their turn again. Our lo also ran a poker game at the same time he ran league and recruited players to play both at the same time. It was a friggin nightmare. Probly one reason I quit. And you always had a couple going around socializing with other teams and always had to hunt them up when it was their turn again. Never had that problem with any other league I have played in.

We play 4 player teams. Each player plays every player on the other team. So you play 4 games of 8 ball. And the pool hall manager if it is not crowded lets us use two tables. So we never run past 9pm. We start at 7pm and I would say 75% of the players are good enough to run out if you make a mistake.

And that is also a problem when trying to get APA players to join. They think they can not win any games. I have explained our handicap system and how they can still loose the game but get enough points to make the matches very competitive.

On a night when everyone it shooting their average the matches come down to less than 10 point difference.

 

[DblGonzo]

Do you remember the WFL and the USFL? Both tried and failed to compete directly with
The NFL. If there are APA teams there, then you can count on there being unhappy APA
players there as well. Don't try and compete directly with the APA, you can't win, but try
to exist along side the APA for a while, as more of a parasite than competition. Picking up
their unhappy players, offering a second chance tournament when they are knocked out
of the local Top Gun or Grand Prix, stuff like that, do things the APA doesn't or can't do or
won't do, a Calcutta, stuff like that. Just advertising isn't enough, and see if you can get a
hot girl to work with you. Free stuff and pretty girls, what else do pool players love?

Great ideas, Thanks,

 

[Grilled Cheese]

My biggest gripe with APA is how late it runs and the way they keep score in 9 ball. I think getting rewarded for making a ball in 9 ball defeats the purpose of the game. If most BCA matches are really over by 9:30, I'm going to start looking for one to play in immediately. Getting home at 1am sucks especially if you play early and just sit around for 3 to 4 hours watching low level players push balls around the table. It also seems that BCA attracts higher level players overall and I am an APA player that has and wants to continue to get better.

The sooner you get out of that league, the better.


BCA and ACS do attract better players, because people who have the capacity to be better - also have the capacity to be intolerant of rip-off leagues, and want something better. People who have the brain cells to learn pool and improve, have the brain cells to realize how awful the APA is.

Notice the biggest fear APA players have, which is mentioned here, which is heard throughout the years as the reason many won't join BCA/ACS -- The other guy will run out.

Awwww boo hoo. Big time crybaby league filled with insecure people and those who fear challenges and competition.


But yeah, it is not uncommon at all for APA league nights to last past midnight, sometimes to 1am. This is terrible for players. Unless...

• You've got no spouse, children or a job.
• You've got no life and enjoy watching SL3's pound balls into rails for 45 innings all night.
• You're a drunk who hates your home-life and you avoid it by being in the APA on a weeknight.

Or a combination of the above.


No matter how much the APA claims they work toward keeping play moving along, even offering a guide for speeding up league nights, they don't want to.

The APA in most areas has a symbiotic relationship with the local pool rooms. The APA format is designed to keep people in bars and pool rooms as long as possible. That's more liquor and food sales.


They are greedy, because a room and league should be satisfied with bringing in players for 2.5 - 3 hours. The APA appeals to room owners for how many drinkers they bring in and for the amount of time they can keep them tied down in that room.

Because of this symbiotic relationship, some APA Leagues become mafia like and like to strong arm room owners. Threatening to pull leagues out of their rooms if they don't get their way.

If you are an owner and you like the business the APA brings in, great! More power to you. But if you don't need the APA, be careful inviting this parasite into your room. It will grow and expand, and push out non-league players. Then once your business depends on the APA, you are not longer the owner of your room, you're a partner in your own business.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

I still wonder why leagues even sanction with BCAPL any longer. American CueSports Alliance (ACS) has the same process for sanctioning, encourages the same formats, their Nationals is at the Tropicana in the friendlier dates of May...and you get more benefits for only $10 sanction fee per player annually instead of the BCAPL $15/player. And it's administered by the old BCA national league system administrators who grew the BCA Natls (not the "BCAPL Natls) in Vegas, unlike the current "BCAPL" administrators whose Championships is less than half the size of what it used to be.

And you're not sanctioned with the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) - the real "BCA" - that no longer has a league system; you are sanctioned with "BCAPL." "BCAPL" sued the "BCA" in 2008 to be able to keep the initials "BCA" in their "BCAPL" name. Go ahead and ask "BCAPL" if their "BCA" initials stand for anything. They'll respond - No...they don't."

And I bet you think you're using "BCA" rules of play. If you scratch on the break in 8ball, you can place the cue ball anywhere on the table. If you are using that rule, you are NOT playing by "BCA" rules; you're playing "BCAPL" rules. Really....check it out: The Billiard Congress of America ("BCA") is now strictly a trade association, but it still publishes a commercial rulebook you can buy in most billiard retail stores. The "BCA" follows the world-standardized rules that ACS follows - the official rules established by the WPA, the world-governing body for the sport - and the rule "if you scratch on the break, you place the cue ball BEHIND THE LINE." So...."BCA" rules are behind the line on the break;" "BCAPL" rules are "anywhere on the table."

The BCAPL has been using smoke and mirror branding tactics for many years now, and it's a major reason so many players and leagues who used to attend the "BCAPL Nationals" no longer attend. And a lot of them are joining the ACS when they do the research.

Check out www.americancuesports.org. Either way, good luck with your league!

ACS has a fun, quick moving format. It has less drama, less BS. Good players. Good rules.

No league is perfect, and ACS is no exception, but ACS is better than most, including the awful APA.

 

[lorider]

Our league dual-sanctioned with ACS and BCAPL for a few years. We did so because of the nicely-timed May ACS Nationals (which, by the way, were purposely scheduled to overlap the old May BCAPL event @ Riviera so as to screw with the BCAPL). We no longer sanction with the ACS. It has nothing to do with the ACS. For all intents and purposes the ACS is a clone of the BCAPL, at $5 less per year. Their national tourney is well-run. The CompuSports app makes it easy to follow the action. I like the concurrently run events (9-ball singles / doubles on the weekend and 9/8 ball teams during the week). The price is right. The doors to the tourney room are just a few paces away from the bathrooms, bar, and smoking area. The Tropicana is a fine casino, and it's on the strip. We decided not to sanction with the ACS simply because after two years, there was absolutely no interest in our league to play in their nationals.

I have felt from the beginning (2004) that the ACS argument against the BCAPL is without merit. "Big Bad Mark Griffin" had the audacity to purchase the league and disband the league's board of directors. Well, if there is one thing we have learned in the last 14 years is that Mark Griffin has done nothing but an excellent job promoting professional and amateur pool. The BCAPL rules are by far the most comprehensive (and best) pool rule set in the world. The BCAPL has also adopted and promoted the world's best pool ranking system, FargoRate.

It wasn't Mark's fault that the Riviera closed. Clearly, the choice of the off-strip Rio and the switch to July for their Nationals were decisions that negatively affected the event. I think the switch in month was the worse of those two changes, but that will all change again next year when the BCAPL World Championships switch to the Feb-Apr time frame.

Having played in both the ACS and BCAPL Vegas events, I can wholeheartedly recommend (if you can't play both) the BCAPL event. The payouts are much more deep in the BCAPL. The BCAPL has almost triple the number of tables. The BCAPL uses Diamond tables, which may or may not be better for you vs the Valley tables used by the ACS. The BCAPL now offers four sub-divisions of their 8-ball singles and team events; more than the ACS offers. And the BCAPL subdivisions are actually based on quantifiable data (Fargo ratings). The ACS basically takes the league operators word for it when deciding where to place players.

We all know that the BCA and the BCAPL are completely separate animals, and frankly, we don't care. The BCAPL is awesome. The people that run it are awesome. Their rules are awesome. Their Vegas event is awesome. And there is nothing wrong with the ACS either.

I wonder if you would be kind enough to help me find the payouts for this years nationals. The only thing i could find was scotch doubles payouts for gold and platinum.

 

[Lonestar_jim]

The same way the majority of people are uninformed or make bad decisions (or a combination of), a majority of pool playing amateurs play APA.

Why do so many people have credit card debt?

Why do so many people fall for all the various marketing gimmicks?

Why are so many people attracted to majorities or follow the herd or act like lemmings?

Quite often, people do not choose the best value, best deal for them. They are fooled by hype. And base decisions on perceptions, rather than objective reality.

The APA pays back the least, has the worst format, worst rules and the worst players, the worst handicap system, and the worst competitive culture. But it attracts the players because of a "free" trip to Vegas if you win your division then the local cities tournament.


Maybe I'm being too harsh....


Let's look at the bright side, the positives.


If you have mastered the art of sandbagging, the APA is for you.

If you like to power drink more than playing pool, the format works well. Bug the captain to play your match early, then you are free the rest of the night to watch your teammates bang balls into rails while you inebriate yourself. The APA is for you.

If you have ADD and can't cope in an all-night turn based format, the APA is for you.

If you believe that running 1 rack of 8-ball is such an accomplishment it warrants the awarding of a patch, the APA is for you.

If you like hanging around from 7:30 PM till 1:00 AM before you are called to play your match - the APA is for you.

If you like having a league rule book that is 5x thicker than the entire BCA book, yet only covers 8 and 9 ball and still fails to address scenarios that lead to arguments - the APA is for you.

If you like watching two SL3's take 40 innings to play 3 racks of 8-ball, the APA is for you.



***

I have no stats to back this, but I'd bet my left nut the average IQ of a BCA league player is higher than an APA player.

Brighter people tend to figure out what's best for them more than dumb people, thus more of them play in other leagues and avoid the scams.

Brighter people also tend to learn how to play pool better than dumb people, thus the average strength of the BCA is higher than the APA. This is intimidates your typical APA player.

BCA players actually love pool. APA players love alcohol. This is why BCA players would never accept a tedious format like the APA. They are there to play pool, not loiter and drink.

POTY until you stepped on my alcohol toes. Let’s just delete the IQ and alcohol portion of your post. Start a league in a church basement that has no bar. Who will play there ? Perfect Brunswick tables and lighting of course. I play both APA and BCA. Better players in both leagues are not there to get drunk.

 

[sbpoolleague]

I wonder if you would be kind enough to help me find the payouts for this years nationals. The only thing i could find was scotch doubles payouts for gold and platinum.

Go here https://www.playcsipool.com/2018-bcapl-wc.html then scroll to the bottom to see the results, with payouts.

 

[lorider]

The sooner you get out of that league, the better.


BCA and ACS do attract better players, because people who have the capacity to be better - also have the capacity to be intolerant of rip-off leagues, and want something better. People who have the brain cells to learn pool and improve, have the brain cells to realize how awful the APA is.

Notice the biggest fear APA players have, which is mentioned here, which is heard throughout the years as the reason many won't join BCA/ACS -- The other guy will run out.

Awwww boo hoo. Big time crybaby league filled with insecure people and those who fear challenges and competition.


But yeah, it is not uncommon at all for APA league nights to last past midnight, sometimes to 1am. This is terrible for players. Unless...

• You've got no spouse, children or a job.
• You've got no life and enjoy watching SL3's pound balls into rails for 45 innings all night.
• You're a drunk who hates your home-life and you avoid it by being in the APA on a weeknight.

Or a combination of the above.


No matter how much the APA claims they work toward keeping play moving along, even offering a guide for speeding up league nights, they don't want to.

The APA in most areas has a symbiotic relationship with the local pool rooms. The APA format is designed to keep people in bars and pool rooms as long as possible. That's more liquor and food sales.


They are greedy, because a room and league should be satisfied with bringing in players for 2.5 - 3 hours. The APA appeals to room owners for how many drinkers they bring in and for the amount of time they can keep them tied down in that room.

Because of this symbiotic relationship, some APA Leagues become mafia like and like to strong arm room owners. Threatening to pull leagues out of their rooms if they don't get their way.

If you are an owner and you like the business the APA brings in, great! More power to you. But if you don't need the APA, be careful inviting this parasite into your room. It will grow and expand, and push out non-league players. Then once your business depends on the APA, you are not longer the owner of your room, you're a partner in your own business.

I have commented in just about every apa thread on here since I joined this forum. Its fine that some do not like apa . After all .not every one likes the same flavor . what's not fine is when some one like you wants to come on here and question some ones mental capacity just because they prefer to play in apa.

Regardless of what you claim I know for a fact that not every one that plays bcapl is an amateur efren. People of all different levels play bcapl....the same as any other league.
Sure there are a lot of very good players in bcapl bit the same can be said of Napa....tap....usall and believe it or not....even apa . Any one who thinks otherwise may be missing a few brain cells their selves.

You remind me of the first bcapl captain I ever met. After beating this guy 3-4 times playing in a bar he asked me what league I played in. I told him I have never played in any league. He asked if i would lime to join his team and I said why not.

The next week I met him at the time and place he requested and he took and introduced me to his captain and said he wanted me to join their team. The captain asked me my handicap and I said I did not have one that i had never played league. He looked at the guy who introduced us and asked where he knew me from. The guy replied saying he met me in a bar the previous week. The captain said he did not need a bar player.....i guess he figured I was not good enough for his team even though the guy who introduced us told him I was better than any one on the team. The guy apologized about his captains attitude and introduced me to the league operator telling him I wanted to join the league.

The captain finds a team willing to add me. A few weeks later that asshole captain found out that his player was right about me after I won 4 out of 5 matches against his team that night.

As for your comment about apa players scared to olay in other leagues.. Every time another league has attempted to start up in this area numerous apa players joined those other leagues. I have played in all of them....bcapl...Napa...tap....usapl. I also have played apa masters.......if i Ai t scared of playing the best in town even up I damn sure aint scared of playing a bcapl player.

 

[Echelon]

For what it's worth, I stopped playing APA for the following reasons.

1. The matches always run late, 11 to midnight in most cases.
2. Despite being a good player and on many good teams I never got anything significant back.
3. Nothing in it for great players. I almost always played last and got a 2 or 3 thrown on me.
4. Most players where getting high and drunk, pool was 3rd in line.

There is no BCA leagues near me. I found a few nice in house singles leagues and won all the money I spent over 10 years in the APA back in less than a year. I practiced, played and was home by 9. I got to play many great players and the majority of people where there to play, lean and improve, not drink or get high. It really rekindled my love for the sport.

Unfortunately the bread and butter of the APA is beginner level players that like to drink.

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