And it really isn't the case, as you well know. You're not doing your or Cue-Tech's reputation here any good by so obviously trying to twist our meaning, Scott.
pj
chgo
Congratulations to another SPF Student
- Thread starter dr9ball
- Start date
And it really isn't the case, as you well know. You're not doing your or Cue-Tech's reputation here any good by so obviously trying to twist our meaning, Scott.
pj
chgo
You know it's not about that, and so does everybody else.
This could be a little thing, of no consequence. But instead every time this comes up (and it keeps coming up) you guys get a little more tarnished - not so much because you did it again, but because you insist on trying all these transparent dodges and denials.
It not only makes you look less than truthful; it makes it appear that you think we're all stupid.
pj
chgo
Praise to one of my students
#1 06-08-2008, 03:42 PM
SmoothStroke
Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005
vCash: 500
iTrader: (0)
Posts: 114
Congratulations Angelo Quadara
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a fine showing at Valley Forge.
I know Mom, Dad and Joseph are proud of you.
You know I am. Someone once said hard work pays off.
You're a fine young man, intelligent and respectuful as a young man can be.
Don't forget to thank your parents.
P.S. That's a great stroke you have there young man I think I am going to need some weight.
Signed: Now you know my screename
Today May 5 2009 -The above post was praise to one of my students back in June of 2008.
He finished second in the junior 16 yr olds, If I want to hijack your thread I would add a Number One Female player in the world was also one of my students for 5 - 6 hours a day for months,,,not one 3 hour lesson 3 years ago.
But as you can see from my post the praise went to my student.
The new post is so maybe you can see what praise is all about, compare the two.
I may start my own school, maybe call it SSS Academy
#1 06-08-2008, 03:42 PM
SmoothStroke
Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005
vCash: 500
iTrader: (0)
Posts: 114
Congratulations Angelo Quadara
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a fine showing at Valley Forge.
I know Mom, Dad and Joseph are proud of you.
You know I am. Someone once said hard work pays off.
You're a fine young man, intelligent and respectuful as a young man can be.
Don't forget to thank your parents.
P.S. That's a great stroke you have there young man I think I am going to need some weight.
Signed: Now you know my screename
Today May 5 2009 -The above post was praise to one of my students back in June of 2008.
He finished second in the junior 16 yr olds, If I want to hijack your thread I would add a Number One Female player in the world was also one of my students for 5 - 6 hours a day for months,,,not one 3 hour lesson 3 years ago.
But as you can see from my post the praise went to my student.
The new post is so maybe you can see what praise is all about, compare the two.
I may start my own school, maybe call it SSS Academy
In all fairness to the SPF instructors, I am the one who posted a blatant advertisement, not any of them. While they certainly didn't hesitate to illustrate a connection between my friend's performance and the instruction he recieved, I don't think anyone else came right out and said "take this program.". I did that.
Just to be clear, I'm not an SPF teacher and my only connection to them is that I took their clinic and have contacted Scott since then whenever I need advice from an instructor. I have no personal incentive whatsoever to push their services. I took the course about a year ago, so I'm well beyond the "afterglow effect" that can distort a person's unbiased opinion of such events.
I also know how to objectively evaluate a teacher and his curriculum -- in my (non pool related) professional career, I've studied in great depth the psychology of learning and most effective teaching methods. Additionally, I've been playing for 11 years, and have known and/or worked with about that many billiards coaches. The bottom line here is that these guys teach a great program, and the majority of them teach it quite well. As I mentioned earlier, I've seen drastic results in my game and in the games of every other person I know who took the course with me (6 of them). I've known instructors who've helped me a little and others who've actually damaged my game, but this program is the only one I've personally experienced that has truly made me a much better player.
I know there are differing opinions on the SPF guys here, and I'm certainly not trying to claim they're perfect. There are definitely things I really don't like about their organization, and I think the quality of instruction can vary a little too much from instructor to instructor. That said, I tell anybody who asks me to go see Scott and Randy, and none of them have come back disappointed or even mostly satisfied. They're always amazed. Scott and Randy's course consistently gets drastic results, and that's why I wanted to plug them. I know Rob very well, and I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that if he were on this board, he would have done the same thing.
If you don't like the way they handle themselves here, that's fine -- I tend to agree with you sometimes. But don't let that cloud the fact that they consistently get rapid, drastic results out of students at virtually all levels in the game, because that's really what instructors should be evaluated on, right?
Just to be clear, I'm not an SPF teacher and my only connection to them is that I took their clinic and have contacted Scott since then whenever I need advice from an instructor. I have no personal incentive whatsoever to push their services. I took the course about a year ago, so I'm well beyond the "afterglow effect" that can distort a person's unbiased opinion of such events.
I also know how to objectively evaluate a teacher and his curriculum -- in my (non pool related) professional career, I've studied in great depth the psychology of learning and most effective teaching methods. Additionally, I've been playing for 11 years, and have known and/or worked with about that many billiards coaches. The bottom line here is that these guys teach a great program, and the majority of them teach it quite well. As I mentioned earlier, I've seen drastic results in my game and in the games of every other person I know who took the course with me (6 of them). I've known instructors who've helped me a little and others who've actually damaged my game, but this program is the only one I've personally experienced that has truly made me a much better player.
I know there are differing opinions on the SPF guys here, and I'm certainly not trying to claim they're perfect. There are definitely things I really don't like about their organization, and I think the quality of instruction can vary a little too much from instructor to instructor. That said, I tell anybody who asks me to go see Scott and Randy, and none of them have come back disappointed or even mostly satisfied. They're always amazed. Scott and Randy's course consistently gets drastic results, and that's why I wanted to plug them. I know Rob very well, and I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that if he were on this board, he would have done the same thing.
If you don't like the way they handle themselves here, that's fine -- I tend to agree with you sometimes. But don't let that cloud the fact that they consistently get rapid, drastic results out of students at virtually all levels in the game, because that's really what instructors should be evaluated on, right?
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I've learned from Scott and praised him highly for his expertise and enthusiasm more than once here. His and Randy's and Cue-Tech's expertise and value as instructors is not in question. People simply object to their constant half-disguised self-promotion here. It's got to the point that I look for (and sadly usually find) the ulterior motive in all their posts.
As I said, this isn't about evaluating them as instructors (except that they're inadvertently making it harder to do that when they post this way).
pj
chgo
I can only speak for myself, but of the hundreds of students I have worked with, I could count on one hand the number who listed this forum as the way they heard about me.
I don't post here to find students. I post here because I love pool, I can learn a lot, and sometimes even share some knowledge.
Do you think this would be a better pool forum without all the instructors participating?
Steve
So it shouldn't hurt any of you to stop with all the ads.
Are you saying you won't "participate" without the self-promoting?
pj
chgo
Good idea Patrick. I will ask all the *&$ Instructors to tone it down.....*&$-randyg
PJ, i'm just surprised you havn't mentioned DR. Dave
Look around. There are a lot of bigger issues to worry about than whether or not an instructor praises the success of one of his students. Let's start a poll to find out if SVB puts his pants on right leg first, or left leg first. In the scheme of things, what is really important?
Steve
Bad analogy/comparison
cookie man:
Bad comparison. Dr. Dave doesn't continually hawk "wares" like the SPF instructors do. His posts are not laced with blatant sales pitches like, oh, this:
Instead, Dr. Dave continually offers up his knowledge, expertise, research (e.g. videos, documentation) and helpful attitude to the pool community, without hawking wares (e.g. "slots" in some school).
That is the point of the heat against the SPF instructors. When called to the carpet about these practices, one is met with evasive defenses from the SPF instructors, such as calling into question *any* instructor's ability to post on these forums, as if to imply "ability to post = right to stick an ad in your face." Or the "who, me? I was only 'congratulating' a fellow student/practitioner" back-pedaling. As a countering example, you don't see the BCA instructors being called to the carpet about these practices -- only the SPF instructors. (And there are plenty more BCA instructors out there than the SPF instructors!) This is not a "religious war" against the SPF; it has nothing to do with SPF itself -- only how it's continually marketed. If Dr. Dave had thinly-veiled sales pitches for, oh, say, high-speed camera widgets in his posts, you can *BET* (and we pool players are a gambling bunch, aren't we?) that he would be met with the same call to the carpet.
This is not a debate about "freedom of speech" (e.g. the evasive defenses about this "being a free country"). As with anything, there's a time and a place for stuff like this. On AZBilliards, if not paying Mike H. for an ad/banner at the top of the screen, this "place" is the Wanted/For Sale forum, and to a lesser extent, the Ask The Instructor forum.
Respectfully,
-Sean
cookie man:
Bad comparison. Dr. Dave doesn't continually hawk "wares" like the SPF instructors do. His posts are not laced with blatant sales pitches like, oh, this:
Instead, Dr. Dave continually offers up his knowledge, expertise, research (e.g. videos, documentation) and helpful attitude to the pool community, without hawking wares (e.g. "slots" in some school).
That is the point of the heat against the SPF instructors. When called to the carpet about these practices, one is met with evasive defenses from the SPF instructors, such as calling into question *any* instructor's ability to post on these forums, as if to imply "ability to post = right to stick an ad in your face." Or the "who, me? I was only 'congratulating' a fellow student/practitioner" back-pedaling. As a countering example, you don't see the BCA instructors being called to the carpet about these practices -- only the SPF instructors. (And there are plenty more BCA instructors out there than the SPF instructors!) This is not a "religious war" against the SPF; it has nothing to do with SPF itself -- only how it's continually marketed. If Dr. Dave had thinly-veiled sales pitches for, oh, say, high-speed camera widgets in his posts, you can *BET* (and we pool players are a gambling bunch, aren't we?) that he would be met with the same call to the carpet.
This is not a debate about "freedom of speech" (e.g. the evasive defenses about this "being a free country"). As with anything, there's a time and a place for stuff like this. On AZBilliards, if not paying Mike H. for an ad/banner at the top of the screen, this "place" is the Wanted/For Sale forum, and to a lesser extent, the Ask The Instructor forum.
Respectfully,
-Sean
Personally, I don't mind when these pool schools are announced here - that's advertising, but it's for a specific event so it's relatively infrequent, and it's above board. It's when every other post (and that's generous for some of these guys) is laced with self-referential "stealth" promotion that I get tired of it.
It's not the end of the world, but you'd think they'd want to hear about it if they're having the wrong effect.
And, of course, Dr. Dave is the best example we have of the opposite kind of posting: his information, articles and videos are all offered freely in the spirit of openly sharing knowledge with his fellow discussion forum participants. If you're talkin' down the Doctor, you're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
pj
chgo
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I didn't really have you in mind, Teach' - just making general comments for those who know who they are.
I don't think that question is relevant to this issue, and I'm a little surprised that you'd ask it again. It sounds like you're threatening not to participate if you can't advertise.
Again, you know that's not what this is about.
pj
chgo
I agree. When it's a traveling one-time school, it's good information to get out there.
There was a now-defunct Minnesota forum that allowed basically no talk about tournaments. A room couldn't say they had a $400 added 14.1 tournament this weekend, for instance. Sure, it's advertising--I guess--but it's also information forum readers want to know. It really too away from the forum.
I don't mind seeing an occasional reminder about Scott's travel schedule, or that there's a such and such pool school coming to Oskosh. So long as the information aspect outweighs the promotion aspect, I'm good with it.
Dave has so much in the bank on the information side of the equation that he could promote promote promote for 1000 posts, and I wouldn't complain.
Do you suppose a Johnson/Page fightin tag team would scare 'em?
mike page said:
I can hear their knees knockin' at the very idea. LOL.
pj
chgo
P.S. Are you going to give us plenty of advance notice for your grand opening? I'd like to take a road trip (maybe you can introduce me to your Police Chief, Frances McDormand).
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You're comparing Dr. Dave with SPF family?
Dr. Dave REGULARLY jumps into MANY THREADS and posts and offers his advice free of charge to the forum. Most of his posts are subtantially different from the SPF advertisements.
If you don't see the difference, then I guess we just aren't reading the same posts.
I really don't mind reading a little free advertisement in the forum informing us of new products and services or even a reminder every once in a blue moon about so and so, but I think by now, we all know who the SPF family is and what a valuable service they provide IN THEIR SCHOOLS AND CLINICS and there is less need to be prodded by constant advertising for the same product in the Main Forum.
JoeyA
That was my point as well, Patrick. I covered that in another post (e.g. the American Pie-esque "band camp" references in those "every other posts"), but because the waters seemed to have been muddied with the "should 'all' instructors just not post then" counter reply, I tried to shine a flashlight on an example of the "shoehorn marketing" that was going on. Of course, not all instructors are guilty of this; just select few (they know who they are).
Certainly, occasional posts about upcoming schools / road-shows / schedules are warranted and welcomed, but these are their own threads. Like you, I quickly got tired of the "band camp" marketing shoehorned into every other post, whether the original thread had to do with a pool school or not.
And to be fair, perhaps folks like you and me have become very sensitive to it because it'd been in our face for so long. We now look for (and unfortunately find) it in just about every other post, and sometimes we don't even have to look for it -- it's just "right there" out in the open.
Absolutely. I know if I were in business, I'd want to know if my very marketing practices were negatively affecting my message or my reputation.
With this I fully concur. "Them are fightin' words" to me as well. You might've noticed I opened that reply to cookie man with the opening sentence, "Bad comparison," and then followed that up with an explanation why. Bringing Dr. Dave into this certainly came out of left field, and I know there's a lot of us that wanted to squash that in a heartbeat -- you, Mike Page, JoeyA, and myself being good examples.
-Sean
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