Constant Speed Storke

skipbales

AzB Gold Member
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Do any of you instructors teach the concept of maintaining a constant stroke speed wherever possible? Have any of you long time players been trained in this, and if so, do you use it?

I was first introduced to this concept on a cd by CJ. He talks about trying to "make the table conform to his style". He uses up and down the center of the cue ball to regulate the speed, where possible, and always trying to hit each shot the same "hardness" or stroke speed. Even his "touch of Inside" works to this by deadening the cue ball on most shots and "floating into position" instead of rolling. Of course there are exceptions but I do see the value in this.

Timothy White, Academy of the Cueing Arts, talks about a consistent 8 diamond stroke speed and how he regulates it so it can be used. He talks about speeding it up with running English and slowing it down with reverse to fit playing position. But he bases his thought process on where a 8 diamond stoke takes you naturally. I haven't seen enough of his videos to know where the 6 diamond concept comes from.

Scott Lee helped me learn how to establish my natural speed stroke. If I understood his teaching correctly, he used it as a benchmark to know when I had to hit harder or softer. So if my natural shot speed was a 6, I would consciously adjust up or down to achieve position. We did tests from 1 to 9. 1 being a full table lag to the end rail and 9 was a break shot. We didn't talk about any attempt to use a consistent 6 and use high and low English to make the speed work for most shots, but he may have mentioned it and it didn't register with me at the time.
 
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goettlicher

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do any of you instructors teach the concept of maintaining a constant stroke speed wherever possible? Have any of you long time players been trained in this, and if so, do you use it?

I was first introduced to this concept on a cd by CJ. He talks about trying to "make the table conform to his style". He uses up and down the center of the cue ball to regulate the speed, where possible, and always trying to hit each shot the same "hardness" or stroke speed. Even his "touch of Inside" works to this by deadening the cue ball on most shots and "floating into position" instead of rolling. Of course there are exceptions but I do see the value in this.

Timothy White, Academy of the Cueing Arts, talks about a consistent 6 diamond stroke speed and how he regulates it so it can be used. He talks about speeding it up with running English and slowing it down with reverse to fit playing position. But he bases his thought process on where a 6 diamond stoke takes you naturally. I haven't seen enough of his videos to know where the 6 diamond concept comes from.

Scott Lee helped me learn how to establish my natural speed stroke. If I understood his teaching correctly, he used it as a benchmark to know when I had to hit harder or softer. So if my natural shot speed was a 6, I would consciously adjust up or down to achieve position. We did tests from 1 to 9. 1 being a full table lag to the end rail and 9 was a break shot. We didn't talk about any attempt to use a consistent 6 and use high and low English to make the speed work for most shots, but he may have mentioned it and it didn't register with me at the time.



Both Tim White & Scott lee taught the same Speed Control method. I like it and use it every day I play.

randyg
 

bbb

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i tried to delete this post because of the oversized image but i couldnt delete the image
sorry to all
i wanted to diagram my comment which was
skip i think you mean 16 diamonds not 6 or "2 " speed
Thanks pat for explaining how to delete the pic
 
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skipbales

AzB Gold Member
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i tried to delete this post because of the oversized image but i couldnt delete the image
sorry to all
i wanted to diagram my comment which was
skip i think you mean 16 diamonds not 6 or "2 " speed
Thanks pat for explaining how to delete the pic

No, he actually has cut out shaped like arrows. He lays them out end to end and each one is the length of a diamond. It seems like a pretty soft hit to me but that is what he does. Of course it is 8 diamonds after cue ball hits the object ball. Goes one or two to the rail and then rebounds the rest. I had 6 diamonds but I think it was 8. Something like two from the rail then 6 out. I changed it to 8. I will find the video and put the link here.
 

skipbales

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I look forward to seeing the video
Check your pm

Mystery of the 16 diamonds vs. what he lays out is solved. It is 16 diamonds less "impact". He mentions this once at the very beginning. He doesn't go into figuring out the effect of "impact" in this video. But you will see he lays out 4-8 diamonds in diamond length white arrows (usually 6) then adds 2-3 in black arrows if spin added distance to the shot. The stroke is providing one diamond to the object ball then 6 diamonds plus or minus effect of running or reverse English after contact. This is probably all based on a 16 diamond rolling ball speed shot. He probably covers that in part 1 but I can't find that video.

Here is part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrLyXKlEG-I
Here is part 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8aLJweKuVU

OK in Part 2 he says "We've got 16 then 40% left". That is 40% after contact and it is just over a 1/2 ball hit so that makes sense. It looks like 16 diamonds less 1* whatever portion of the object ball you hit would be close.
 
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bbb

AzB Gold Member
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Tim is a great instructor
His downloadable course is extremely detailed and a great reference
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
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Mystery of the 16 diamonds vs. what he lays out is solved. It is 16 diamonds less "impact". He mentions this once at the very beginning. He doesn't go into figuring out the effect of "impact" in this video. But you will see he lays out 4-8 diamonds in diamond length white arrows (usually 6) then adds 2-3 in black arrows if spin added distance to the shot. The stroke is providing one diamond to the object ball then 6 diamonds plus or minus effect of running or reverse English after contact. This is probably all based on a 16 diamond rolling ball speed shot. He probably covers that in part 1 but I can't find that video.

Here is part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrLyXKlEG-I
Here is part 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8aLJweKuVU

OK in Part 2 he says "We've got 16 then 40% left". That is 40% after contact and it is just over a 1/2 ball hit so that makes sense. It looks like 16 diamonds less 1* whatever portion of the object ball you hit would be close.

Thanks for the link
16-1=15
40% of 15 =6
That’s how he gets 6 diamonds
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It depends on the player. Maybe it's a feel player vs. mechanical player type of thing. Take me, for instance: I'm a feel player and when I use backspin, I know that I have a particular sweet spot on the cue ball, which is very low, that I know never lets me down. So whenever possible, I use that point and adjust my stroke speed. Sometimes that spot on the cb is just too much backspin, even with a softer stroke, so I may have to move my aim point up a bit on the cb for a close shot where I only want a touch of backspin. But that's how I think when I'm shooting.

My observations are that feel players like myself do tend to have favorite sweet spots on the cb that they prefer to hit and they will adjust their stroke speeds accordingly whenever possible.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
It depends on the player. Maybe it's a feel player vs. mechanical player type of thing. Take me, for instance: I'm a feel player and when I use backspin, I know that I have a particular sweet spot on the cue ball, which is very low, that I know never lets me down. So whenever possible, I use that point and adjust my stroke speed. Sometimes that spot on the cb is just too much backspin, even with a softer stroke, so I may have to move my aim point up a bit on the cb for a close shot where I only want a touch of backspin. But that's how I think when I'm shooting.

My observations are that feel players like myself do tend to have favorite sweet spots on the cb that they prefer to hit and they will adjust their stroke speeds accordingly whenever possible.
Yes, I think stroke speed is easier to vary precisely than tip placement - and we can get very good at hitting the CB near the miscue limit, which doesn't change.

The times this doesn't work is when we need a certain carom angle with a certain speed - then we have to control both stroke speed and tip placement.

pj
chgo
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, I think stroke speed is easier to vary precisely than tip placement - and we can get very good at hitting the CB near the miscue limit, which doesn't change.

The times this doesn't work is when we need a certain carom angle with a certain speed - then we have to control both stroke speed and tip placement.

pj
chgo

PJ, I don't understand your last sentence. Can you explain it a little more? Thanks.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
My observations are that feel players like myself do tend to have favorite sweet spots on the cb that they prefer to hit and they will adjust their stroke speeds accordingly whenever possible.

Yes, I think stroke speed is easier to vary precisely than tip placement - and we can get very good at hitting the CB near the miscue limit, which doesn't change.

The times this doesn't work is when we need a certain carom angle with a certain speed - then we have to control both stroke speed and tip placement.

pj
chgo

PJ, I don't understand your last sentence. Can you explain it a little more? Thanks.
Hitting the same CB spot and varying only the stroke speed works great for controlling the distance of straight draw or follow.

For cut shots we can hit the same spot on the CB and vary only the stroke speed to control the carom angle, but that speed might not be what we need for the distance we want the CB to go. To get both right we need to control both variables.

Hope that's more clear...

pj
chgo
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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Hitting the same CB spot and varying only the stroke speed works great for controlling the distance of straight draw or follow.

For cut shots we can hit the same spot on the CB and vary only the stroke speed to control the carom angle, but that speed might not be what we need for the distance we want the CB to go. To get both right we need to control both variables. ...
An example of this is the wagon wheel drill when the cue ball is in a fixed location for all the shots. For most of the shots, there is only one combination of speed and tip contact that will send the cue ball to softly hit the current target ball:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b42018ceoE
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
An example of this is the wagon wheel drill when the cue ball is in a fixed location for all the shots. For most of the shots, there is only one combination of speed and tip contact that will send the cue ball to softly hit the current target ball:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b42018ceoE
Yes, and I think the principle applies broadly: there's only one speed/contact point combo for any specific carom angle/distance.

Fortunately it's not as complex as that might seem - since the speed of the shot is most often dictated by position demands, you just need to "guess" the tip position that works with that speed.

pj
chgo
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hitting the same CB spot and varying only the stroke speed works great for controlling the distance of straight draw or follow.

For cut shots we can hit the same spot on the CB and vary only the stroke speed to control the carom angle, but that speed might not be what we need for the distance we want the CB to go. To get both right we need to control both variables.

Hope that's more clear...

pj
chgo

I'm getting closer to understanding but I'm not there yet. What do you mean by carom angle?
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The direction the CB goes off the OB on a cut shot, controlled (as much as possible) by the amount of follow/draw and speed of the hit.

pj
chgo

I don't like that term (carom angle) for what you're describing. I had to ask you twice before I understood what you were referring to.
 
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