Constant Speed Storke

Bob Jewett

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I don't like that term (carom angle) for what you're describing. I had to ask you twice before I understood what you were referring to.
I knew what he was talking about but I have played a lot of carom billiards. What term is clearer for the angle the cue ball takes off an object ball? I've tried to think of one but the best I could come up with was "cue ball deflection angle" and that invites confusion with a different kind of deflection.
 

skipbales

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Thanks for the link
16-1=15
40% of 15 =6
That’s how he gets 6 diamonds

Not -1 -1* the %of ball hit so -1*50% = 50% of 16 = 8. Or in this case 60% = 6

As I said it is about a 60% hit so 40% left after collision is about right. ;)

That little * after the 1 was supposed to represent "times" or "multiplied by". It doesn't show up well I should have use X.
 
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skipbales

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An example of this is the wagon wheel drill when the cue ball is in a fixed location for all the shots. For most of the shots, there is only one combination of speed and tip contact that will send the cue ball to softly hit the current target ball:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b42018ceoE

The caveat here is "send the cue ball softly". This is a drill with a stated goal, not a playing situation. In most playing situations there are many ways to do things and many types of position options. A constant speed instructor would plan out a run that matched their chosen game style. In a situation where the only logical choice was a soft hit they would hit softly. Their advice, however, would be to make those shots exceptions and try to stick to a medium stroke where possible, not hard, not soft.

There seems to be 3 schools of thought:
1. Constant speed vary ball hit position and or cut angle
2. Vary speed and try to use the same cut angle and or hit position
3. Vary any darn thing you need to get it done. :wink: I think this is what most do.

I do see some value in trying to hit most shots with a constant speed. A typical situation is a cut across the table to get position on a next ball which is closer to the rail. You can slow roll it and shoot the other ball back or go across and off the opposite rail and back and shoot it in the same pocket as the first. Some slow roll and some go across and back to keep the speed to match their constant speed stroke. My friend and I call this double the speed and double the rails, or just double the speed for short. Soft shots and holding the cue ball for the next shot can be tricky and if the table rolls off you can miss the shot. Good player, good table, no problem.

It isn't to say ALL SHOTS can be hit at one speed. But this style instruction says to use your standard stroke speed as often as possible and use top, bottom and the number of rails to get shape instead of hitting hard and soft.

Stop shots are a good example. You can hit harder or lower and time it out. A constant speed shooter would hit lower at their normal speed.

Tim White teaches a 16 Diamond basic stroke. Scott Lee helped me find my "natural stroke length". It turns out it is about 18 diamonds for me. I probably hit a little too hard and that is not a shock.

I am not promoting either, I am asking what others think.
 
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skipbales

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Both Tim White & Scott lee taught the same Speed Control method. I like it and use it every day I play.

randyg

Thanks Randy. You like it and use it. What percentage of your shots do you think get hit at this speed? Do you alter your patterns based on keeping that consistent stroke? You know, like instead of shooting ball x then ball y I will hit ball y then ball x? because it fits my stroke style the best?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
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An example of this is the wagon wheel drill when the cue ball is in a fixed location for all the shots. For most of the shots, there is only one combination of speed and tip contact that will send the cue ball to softly hit the current target ball:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b42018ceoE

The caveat here is "send the cue ball softly". This is a drill with a stated goal, not a playing situation. In most playing situations there are many ways to do things and many types of position options.
Yes, and in playing situations you choose your option and then try to control the direction and speed of the CB to achieve it - as described for the wagon wheel drill.

By the way, it doesn't say "send the cue ball softly"; it says "send the cue ball to softly hit the target", which requires both soft and hard hits in the drill.

pj
chgo
 
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skipbales

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Yes, and in playing situations you choose your option and then try to control the direction and speed of the CB to achieve it - as described for the wagon wheel drill.

By the way, it doesn't say "send the cue ball softly"; it says "send the cue ball to softly hit the target", which requires both soft and hard hits in the drill.

pj
chgo

So to go back to the subject. I assume you are saying you vary the speed and don't make any attempt to use a constant speed?

The problem with this forum is every topic quickly evolves into someone being right and someone else being wrong. I simply asked who taught or was taught to try to use a constant speed. I am not looking to prove it is a good or bad way to play. I am just curious to see who thinks it has merit.
 

goettlicher

AzB Silver Member
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Thanks Randy. You like it and use it. What percentage of your shots do you think get hit at this speed? Do you alter your patterns based on keeping that consistent stroke? You know, like instead of shooting ball x then ball y I will hit ball y then ball x? because it fits my stroke style the best?

skipbales:
I use "stroke speed" at least 60% of my shots.

Speed control is not used for pocketing balls as much
as getting the cue ball into position.

I have to alter my speed often. The shot and it's next position
will dictate the speed of the shot.

All SPF Instructors teach the same form of speed control. It's
one of our Mother Drills!

Tim White and Scott Lee are just a few of the 100's of SPF Instructors.

Another great post.
randyg
 

BC21

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I knew what he was talking about but I have played a lot of carom billiards. What term is clearer for the angle the cue ball takes off an object ball? I've tried to think of one but the best I could come up with was "cue ball deflection angle" and that invites confusion with a different kind of deflection.

I don't think there is a more precise term than "carom angle" to describe the angle the cb takes when it caroms off the ob. Maybe "contact path"?? Anyhow, I haven't played a lot of carom billiards, but everyone knows what carom means, so the term "carom angle" isn't too ambiguous.
 
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Bob Jewett

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Do any of you instructors teach the concept of maintaining a constant stroke speed wherever possible? Have any of you long time players been trained in this, and if so, do you use it?
...
I think it is important to play within your comfort zone as much as possible. At the edges, your pocketing percentages will start to drop off.

However, I think when you are practicing, your goal should be to extend your comfort zone to be as wide as possible. This gets back to the standard -- and in my view most excellent -- advice to work on your weaknesses. If you have trouble moving the cue ball sideways from a nearly full shot, work on your power stun shots. If you frequently miss slow rollers when the cue ball is frozen to the rail, work on slow rollers.

I think most players will naturally learn to play for position that they are comfortable playing from. If that's all they do in practice I think they're practicing wrong.
 

skipbales

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You mean like this?

Or is it only an argument when somebody else does it?

pj
chgo

I didn't intend that to be critical in any way or disrespectful. I was just pointing out it was a drill with a specific goal in mind which required a certain hit. The Constant speed idea isn't for all shots. It is a playing style that favors a general concept. The concept is to use a lot of techniques to allow the use of a "natural speed" shot. The idea of lessening variables appeals to me. But I have nothing to compare it to so was looking for input. So far it seems some teach it differently than others. Tim White and CJ both talk about using spin, rails and different patterns to actually try to stick to that speed. Others seem to recognize its existence but don't incorporate any methods to try to use it more often.

A slightly different concept that is similar is the way one of my playing partners gets position. He almost never hits a stun with an angle. If plain stun would do the job so will top or bottom with some left or right. He learned to play that way, says it isn't the "right way to do it" but it is too late for him to change now. Our third team member laughs and says "Terry would put spin on a hot dog.". Coming off a rail there are an infinite number of combinations of low and or high with spin that all end up at the same spot. Some need to be hit softly others with more speed. Trying to use a style that favors one speed vs. learning all the different ways to get there and then choosing is a different idea. It is sort of like hitting a drag shot instead of a slow roll when you are concerned the table might not be perfectly level.

If I offended anyone I apologize. Again, not my intent. I think messaging and email can seem harsh because the voice inflection and facial expressions are not present. I always appreciate your comments. But look at this thread and see all the back and forth that got generated and isn't even on the topic. Comments I am not even involved in. I just would like to see discussion that was friendlier. I have people who PM me because they don't want to say something publicly because they know there is another contributor with a strongly held opinion who will be offended. So let me be the first to apologize for any rude behavior. None is intended.
 
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skipbales

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I think it is important to play within your comfort zone as much as possible. At the edges, your pocketing percentages will start to drop off.

However, I think when you are practicing, your goal should be to extend your comfort zone to be as wide as possible. This gets back to the standard -- and in my view most excellent -- advice to work on your weaknesses. If you have trouble moving the cue ball sideways from a nearly full shot, work on your power stun shots. If you frequently miss slow rollers when the cue ball is frozen to the rail, work on slow rollers.

I think most players will naturally learn to play for position that they are comfortable playing from. If that's all they do in practice I think they're practicing wrong.

Hey Bob. Good advice. Tor Lowry has a form to log trouble shots on. He calls it "being your own pool coach". I have 4 pages (6 to a page) or trouble shots. :cool: I set them up and work on them until I can do 10 in a row. If I don't get there I leave them on the list. I have some that will probably never go away. Full table off a rail is a tough one for me.

What is your thinking on trying to use a constant speed over a very wide range of shots so you are only "learning one speed". Is it worth considering, or do you think there are so many different kinds of situations it would not be worth the effort?
 

FranCrimi

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OK. Out of curiosity, what does "carom angle" mean to you? What would you call what I described?

pj
chgo

Carom angle? Well the first thing I though of was the angle of the cue ball going towards the object ball rather than coming off of it. But even that was vague to me because I'd never heard the term before. That's why I was having trouble conceptualizing what you were trying to say.

What would I call what you were describing? Tangent line deviation, maybe? I'd have to think about it for awhile. When I hear 'tangent line,' I know it means after the cb makes contact with the ob.
 

Bob Jewett

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... What is your thinking on trying to use a constant speed over a very wide range of shots so you are only "learning one speed". Is it worth considering, or do you think there are so many different kinds of situations it would not be worth the effort?
I think it is the wrong thing to practice.
 

Patrick Johnson

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What would I call what you were describing? Tangent line deviation, maybe? When I hear 'tangent line,' I know it means after the cb makes contact with the ob.
Tangent line deviation is pretty accurate. The CB caroms off the OB along the tangent line before deviating from it with any follow or draw - I think "carom angle" technically means the tangent line angle. I used it to mean the final CB direction after it deviates (or not) from the tangent line.

pj
chgo
 

Bob Jewett

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Tangent line deviation is pretty accurate. The CB caroms off the OB along the tangent line before deviating from it with any follow or draw - I think "carom angle" technically means the tangent line angle. I used it to mean the final CB direction after it deviates (or not) from the tangent line.

pj
chgo
I think of carom angle is the angle between the cue ball's initial path and the path it takes after the collision and any draw or follow have their effect.
 

skipbales

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I think it is the wrong thing to practice.

Thanks Bob. I like that. Your answer is clear. That is all I am looking for, is input. You don't think it has enough value to make it worth an investment in time. If I can get clear input like that from some others I can make a better decision.

If everyone agrees I will likely scrap the idea. If there are a lot of people who find value in the concept I may have to give it some time. It is not a right or wrong thing, more of a poll. :smile:
 

FranCrimi

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I think of carom angle is the angle between the cue ball's initial path and the path it takes after the collision and any draw or follow have their effect.

That's kind of what bothers me about that term. It's incomplete. If one line is the path to the ob, and the apex is the collision point, and the second line of the angle is the path off of the ob, then the angle doesn't define the path of the cb once it deviates. It's basically meaningless.
 
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