Controlling The Mass

[Low500]

There are many ways to play this game, and many philosophies as well. I've mostly been a cue "pusher", gripping the cue tighter as the years go by. I started messing around with pulling the cue and it works very well. I think I now may understand an Earl Strickland quote from a few years ago. He was asked about the many layers of tape on his cue and his reply was "I don't want to feel the cue". I think what he may mean is not feeling the strike of the cue ball. The heavier the cue, the softer in general the cues impact will feel. At a certain weight the cue just seems to go through the cue ball without slowing down much at all. The heavier cue weight seems to work well with the pulling the cue technique. It gives a very smooth feel to the stroke. The exension adds weight behind the hand and it adds weight, period.
I've never been a fan of full time extension use, but I do understand it more, now that I've messed around with the pulling technique.

I agree with this 100%.
Being the selfish jackal bargain hunter that I am, I hope nobody else starts doing it. (especially the people I compete against)
:thumbup:

 

[Low500]

Thanks 99.
Here is a very good example.
Watch the cue stroking difference between Shane and Manny. Shane is just kinda bunting the balls while Manny is forcing the balls.
Notice the extension on Shane's cue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFSF42BPvGE
Have a good one.
John

Those big time pros "don't make no bad bets". It pays to watch what they do.
I busted a Moose Lodge tournament last night and beat their hero in the finals (double elim.) two straight after coming out of the losers bracket.
The Tournament Director seeded me against him in my first match and he beat me in that one. Then I clawed my way through the loser's side to meet him in the finals. Drilled him two straight for the cash.
I used that extension of yours the whole match.
It drew snickers and snotty comments, but all that ribbing turned to anger when I took down the lodge hero.
T.D. says....."I'm going to pay you your winnings, but you don't get to use that extension thing in here anymore. You have to play with the same length cue everybody else uses." (he'd lost betting on hero).
I said..."Anybody else is welcome to use it also when I'm not shooting with it, I don't mind"
T.D. says (getting hotter)..."I am the boss in here and I say you don't bring it in here".
And that's the name of that tune.
(although hero, who is a pretty matter-of-fact gambler, told me he is headed for Lowe's this morning to get the stuff to make one for himself)
Life goes on. Pool shooting has strange followers.
:thumbup:

 

[Ralph Kramden]

Those big time pros "don't make no bad bets". It pays to watch what they do.
I busted a Moose Lodge tournament last night and beat their hero in the finals (double elim.) two straight after coming out of the losers bracket.
The Tournament Director seeded me against him in my first match and he beat me in that one. Then I clawed my way through the loser's side to meet him in the finals. Drilled him two straight for the cash.
I used that extension of yours the whole match.
It drew snickers and snotty comments, but all that ribbing turned to anger when I took down the lodge hero.
T.D. says....."I'm going to pay you your winnings, but you don't get to use that extension thing in here anymore. You have to play with the same length cue everybody else uses." (he'd lost betting on hero).
I said..."Anybody else is welcome to use it also when I'm not shooting with it, I don't mind"
T.D. says (getting hotter)..."I am the boss in here and I say you don't bring it in here".
And that's the name of that tune.:winknudge:
(although hero, who is a pretty matter-of-fact gambler, told me he is headed for Lowe's this morning to get the stuff to make one for himself).
Life goes on. Pool shooting has strange followers.
:thumbup:

I think One Pocket John has a bunch of stock in Lowe's.... :grin:

.

 

[One Pocket John]

Those big time pros "don't make no bad bets". It pays to watch what they do.
I busted a Moose Lodge tournament last night and beat their hero in the finals (double elim.) two straight after coming out of the losers bracket.
The Tournament Director seeded me against him in my first match and he beat me in that one. Then I clawed my way through the loser's side to meet him in the finals. Drilled him two straight for the cash.
I used that extension of yours the whole match.
It drew snickers and snotty comments, but all that ribbing turned to anger when I took down the lodge hero.
T.D. says....."I'm going to pay you your winnings, but you don't get to use that extension thing in here anymore. You have to play with the same length cue everybody else uses." (he'd lost betting on hero).
I said..."Anybody else is welcome to use it also when I'm not shooting with it, I don't mind"
T.D. says (getting hotter)..."I am the boss in here and I say you don't bring it in here".
And that's the name of that tune.
(although hero, who is a pretty matter-of-fact gambler, told me he is headed for Lowe's this morning to get the stuff to make one for himself)
Life goes on. Pool shooting has strange followers.
:thumbup:

You just can't beat a happy ending like this.

Here is a hint of what I will be working on next week.
https://www.cuetrader.org/

The materials will be here tomorrow and assembly will start. To be incorporated into the extension.

I have already built one for my own testing. Pretty neat.

And no, I don't own any Lowes stock.

John

 

[Low500]

You just can't beat a happy ending like this.
Here is a hint of what I will be working on next week.
https://www.cuetrader.org/
The materials will be here tomorrow and assembly will start. To be incorporated into the extension.
I have already built one for my own testing. Pretty neat.
And no, I don't own any Lowes stock.
John

I have a hunch (knowing how backward most of the 'pool world' thinks) that this idea is going to get banned from play. Although naturally "they're" all smiling and saying it's okay and all that stuff at this time.
Kinda' like a politician who says..."I have no plans to do that". Oh is that so? What happens if you suddenly decide to "HAVE plans to do that". You know what I mean?
Can you build it so it is disguised and nobody will ever know what's inside the cue?
The scientific concept sounds brilliant although I am not formally schooled in the sciences to be able to comprehend.
Regards,
Lowenstein
(by the way Lowes closed at 106 today on the big board) I like a good economy...keep at it!

 

[One Pocket John]

Here is a photo showing

1. The long piece which slides over the cue butt. Weighs 3oz.

2. An end weight which is 3oz of movable ball bearings (in weighted oil) and slides into #1 and screws onto
the long piece (#1) Note: the movable bearings is not my idea. Just borrowed.

3. Or screw on the 3oz fixed weight piece to the long piece.

#2 is a movable mass/weight
#3 is a fixed Mass/weight

All of this stuff is fun to play around with. Opens up possibilities for better cuing.

John

 

[One Pocket John]

Finally done screwing around with the weight distribution on my cue.

The extension is 11" overall and weighs 7.8oz. I went with eight 1/2" ball bearings in weighted oil. The ball bearings are always at the back of the extension until I bring the cue forward then they move forward to the end stop. My grip hand is at the front of the extension and my forearm is straight up and down when in the shooting position.

The butt half of the cue weighs in at 21.8oz with the extension on.
The shaft of the cue weighs in at 5.2oz (it has 2oz of weight at the joint - got rid of the Balance Rite which weighed 2oz and was 3.75" long)
The balance point (not that it really matters) is at 22" as measured from the butt cap end. From the tip of the cue the balance point is at 46"
The overall length of the cue is 68"

This may seem a little heavy for some but I am not of average height and have a long wing span.

When down in the shooting position the cue feels as though all this weight is evenly distributed along the length of the cue. In other words you can't feel the weight of the cue........it's neutral.

In the end I wanted a cue that felt good to me. I think I have accomplished that.

So, I'm done with this thread.............again. Jeez

John

 

[AtLarge]

... The butt half of the cue weighs in at 21.8oz with the extension on.
The shaft of the cue weighs in at 5.2oz ...

OK, John, when we play for the World title, I'll have to report you for trying to use an illegal cue (25 oz. is the WPA-specs maximum).

[Actually, I don't know why they have a maximum on cue weights. I might be pleased if my opponent tried to use a 3-pounder!]

 

[MeeLosh]

Here's an observation that potentially puts a dent in this theory:
Most (if not all) snooker players hold the cue at the very end on most shots. In fact, they are often taught that the mass of the cue should be in front of the hand, not behind it. And they are probably the world's finest cue-men in terms of accuracy.

Personally, I vary my technique (much) more often than I would have liked, but I often come back to playing with throwing my cue at the cue ball, similar to how Jeremy Jones or Efren Reyes do it. Reasoning behind this being that it's easier to keep an object on a straight line when you throw it forward as opposed to steering/pushing it forward.

 

[LAMas]

Here's an observation that potentially puts a dent in this theory:
Most (if not all) snooker players hold the cue at the very end on most shots. In fact, they are often taught that the mass of the cue should be in front of the hand, not behind it. And they are probably the world's finest cue-men in terms of accuracy.

Personally, I vary my technique (much) more often than I would have liked, but I often come back to playing with throwing my cue at the object ball, similar to how Jeremy Jones of Efren Reyes do it. Reasoning behind this being that it's easier to keep an object on a straight line when you throw it forward as opposed to steering/pushing it forward.

A very useful post and technique.
Thanks.

 

[One Pocket John]

Here's an observation that potentially puts a dent in this theory:
Most (if not all) snooker players hold the cue at the very end on most shots. In fact, they are often taught that the mass of the cue should be in front of the hand, not behind it. And they are probably the world's finest cue-men in terms of accuracy.

Personally, I vary my technique (much) more often than I would have liked, but I often come back to playing with throwing my cue at the cue ball, similar to how Jeremy Jones or Efren Reyes do it. Reasoning behind this being that it's easier to keep an object on a straight line when you throw it forward as opposed to steering/pushing it forward.

Most if not all of the Philippine players pull (or throw) the back (mass behind their grip hand) of the cue to the cue ball, the mass behind their grip hand allows for the cue to go to the cue ball to a finish. The weight of the rear mass carries the cue thru the cue ball. On some shots they may even give the cue a little push when the cue reaches the cue ball.

SVB is a good example of delivering the mass of the cue behind his grip hand to the cue ball. This style of delivery of the cue takes very little effort. This is why he uses a butt extension on his cue. He now has some mass behind his grip hand to pull forward.
I have also noticed that Jason Shaw is now using a butt extension on his cue.

These extensions are not on the pro's cues because they think they are cool. They are serving a purpose.

The average height player (5'8 - 5' 10) probably would not see any benefit of adding a butt extension. It's only when your height reaches 6' + would the butt extension be of any value. The 6' + players are holding their cue on almost the very end of the cue which would mean that they are trying to push the mass in front of their grip hand in a straight line, this is consistently hard to do every time.

Think about it, is it easier to pull a mass behind your grip hand forward in a straight line or is it easier to push a mass in front of your grip hand forward in a straight line. The latter brings in unwanted tension in the grip hand, forearm and upper arm.

No need for me to write about this any further. If your 6' + in height spend $5 to $7 buy the parts at Lowes, build one and take it to the table.

John

 

[MeeLosh]

@One Pocket John:
I'm all for outside-the-box thinking and I've tried almost everything known to man in search of that extra something to boost my level of play. I'm 6'1" and I've tried playing with extensions a few times in the last couple of years (although it was always nice at first, it never stuck in the long run - which is not to say it won't at some point when I give it another go). But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying that the best, or rather the most accurate, cueists in the world - the snooker players - don't adhere to this logic. Like, at all. They, in fact, do the opposite. So I'm saying while it's good to think outside the box and try everything, I'm not sure this is quite the holy grail of cueing. Though it might work for some people.

 

[One Pocket John]

@One Pocket John:
I'm all for outside-the-box thinking and I've tried almost everything known to man in search of that extra something to boost my level of play. I'm 6'1" and I've tried playing with extensions a few times in the last couple of years (although it was always nice at first, it never stuck in the long run - which is not to say it won't at some point when I give it another go). But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying that the best, or rather the most accurate, cueists in the world - the snooker players - don't adhere to this logic. Like, at all. They, in fact, do the opposite. So I'm saying while it's good to think outside the box and try everything, I'm not sure this is quite the holy grail of cueing. Though it might work for some people.

In Bold above.

The holy grail of cueing is the 5.5" mass between our ears.

John

 

[MeeLosh]

The holy grail of cueing is the 5.5" mass between our ears.

Hear, hear.

 

[LAMas]

Most if not all of the Philippine players pull (or throw) the back (mass behind their grip hand) of the cue to the cue ball, the mass behind their grip hand allows for the cue to go to the cue ball to a finish. The weight of the rear mass carries the cue thru the cue ball. On some shots they may even give the cue a little push when the cue reaches the cue ball.

SVB is a good example of delivering the mass of the cue behind his grip hand to the cue ball. This style of delivery of the cue takes very little effort. This is why he uses a butt extension on his cue. He now has some mass behind his grip hand to pull forward.
I have also noticed that Jason Shaw is now using a butt extension on his cue.

These extensions are not on the pro's cues because they think they are cool. They are serving a purpose.

The average height player (5'8 - 5' 10) probably would not see any benefit of adding a butt extension. It's only when your height reaches 6' + would the butt extension be of any value. The 6' + players are holding their cue on almost the very end of the cue which would mean that they are trying to push the mass in front of their grip hand in a straight line, this is consistently hard to do every time.

Think about it, is it easier to pull a mass behind your grip hand forward in a straight line or is it easier to push a mass in front of your grip hand forward in a straight line. The latter brings in unwanted tension in the grip hand, forearm and upper arm.

No need for me to write about this any further. If your 6' + in height spend $5 to $7 buy the parts at Lowes, build one and take it to the table.

John

One reason:
Many PI players are shorter than US and European players so the standard cue is proportionately longer for them causing them to pull.

 

[One Pocket John]

One reason:
Many PI players are shorter than US and European players so the standard cue is proportionately longer for them causing them to pull.

How sweet is that. If they want more weight behind their grip hand all they do is add a heavier butt end weight bolt. Ya gotta love it.

Custom cues should be built to proportionately fit US and European players.

I think some US players and at least one Russian player are starting to see the light.

John

 

[One Pocket John]

You're a pretty clever guy to come up with that thing.
By the way, the "One Pocket John El Cheapo Extension" just keeps on rolling on.
As Clyde McPhatter and his Drifters sang....."Money Honey". ooooooo yes.
I painted mine white with bright pink polka dots and even went out and bought a hot pink shooting glove too.
Now you should just hear all the controversy that brings about.
I just love owning 'know-it-all pool players'.
Regards,
Lowenstein
View attachment 501057

Thanks for the kind words and support P.L.

The design has changed. The weighting system is not stationary any more, it moves inside the extension. It's a blast to play with.

I also make a shorter version for Break Cues they are 7" long and weigh in at 7 to 8 oz.( weight is stationary) Slip one of these on the butt end of your break cue and then pull the cue into the cue ball. No more trying to push the cue to break the balls. The break is a lot more controllable because less stick speed is needed. SVB is the best at pulling the cue into the cue ball.

If you think that something like this may help your game let me know, I'll send you one............no charge. Just message me your mailing address and it's done. Oh, you'll have to repaint it, they are black.

Later and have a good day.

John

 

[Low500]

Thanks for the kind words and support P.L.
The design has changed. The weighting system is not stationary any more, it moves inside the extension. It's a blast to play use.
I also make a shorter version for Break Cues they are 7" long and weigh in at 7 to 8 oz.( weight is stationary) Slip one of these on the butt end of your break cue and then pull the cue into the cue ball. No more trying to push the cue to break the balls. The break is a lot more controllable because less stick speed is needed. SVB is the best at pulling the cue into the cue ball.
If you think that something like this may help your game let me know, I'll send you one............no charge. Just message me your mailing address and it's done. Oh, you'll have to repaint it, they are black.
Later and have a good day.
John

Interesting. (Great minds do think alike)
25 years ago I decided to build a break cue.
I got a solid iron 3/8 inch diameter rod about 5 feet long at the junkyard. And knocked all the rust off.
Then I sawed off the front 2 inches from an old wood cue and used a coupla' gobs of JB Weld to attach it to the front end of that rod so it would have a tip.
Gave it a coat of primer, painted it black, and then a coat or two of clear polyurethane.
Then I wrapped an old towel around the 'shooting end' for a grip and secured it tightly with a bunch of string.
Ugliest damn thing you ever saw........but ohhhhhh would it scatter pool balls.
Man......when that thing hit a rack of balls, balls went scattering all over the table as if superman had hit them. Didn't have to move it real fast either...just draw back, go forward, and let the "cue" do the work.
I was playing in the old Busch League back then and you should have heard them squall when I blasted into a rack with that thing on one of those crummy little 3 1/2 x 7 tables! It was something to see. Balls flying into pockets everywhere.
I knew it wouldn't last for long, though. Too much complaining so the big dog league boss eventually banned it.
(even though the ones complaining were always wanting to borrow it)
It was fun for a while though. :thumbup:

 

[Brookeland Bill]

A while back I started a thread on the way Alex Pagulayan was stroking (pushing) the cue ball. From what I saw it appeared to look like that. Then watching SVB a trillion times I noticed that he appeared to be using a punch stroke on the cue ball.
I have been watching these two and others and have wandered, what in the heck are they doing.

A year are so ago, a pocket billiard coach,friend and fisherman from New Jersey sent me a word document about controlling the mass. I'll be honest here and say I read it but didn't fully understand it's meaning.

I'm pasting this word document in the hopes that it may help others to understand what SVB, Dennis O, Alex P. are actually doing with their stroke on the cue ball.

Begin: Posted without the owners permission. If the owner should see this post and ask to have it deleted, I will.

Controlling the Mass: An Aircraft Carrier takes 4 nautical miles to stop at full throttle if you shut the power. A small boat takes a few ft in comparison.

It's the mass of the cue we are propelling. If you pull back shorter on the final delivery stroke it's easier to control the mass. Accelerate through the desired length with a smooth transition from beginning to end and clear the cue naturally. As you have seen it's a smooth stroke, but when you mention short stroke technique, automatically everyone thinks it’s a punch stroke, they couldn't be further off base.

Watch Orcullo, Corteza, Pagulayan and many others; the key is to shorten the back swing, and a smooth transition. You can have a 20 inch bridge, pull back short and deliver with required follow through, which is also fairly short, it almost looks like a push stroke, it's sort of 1/2 and 1/2, yet very smooth.

You can get a good feel for it if you shorten your bridge more than normal and practice with that for however long it takes you to get the feel. Then go back to your normal bridge and just pull back shorter and deliver.
I like the longer bridge short stroke technique as it feels loose, too short a bridge feels crammed to me.

You are more accurate and have better control of the stroke with this technique.

It's very difficult to deliver like Shane does on a consistent basis with that long delivery. It has hurt him in world championships not using the short stroke on fast tables. He loses his cue ball due to the mass and has ended up on the 50 yard line many times to cost him the match. As great as he is, and he is one fantastic player, he lacks the the short stroke,imagine when he dials that in.

Short Stroking, Upstroking, Backhand English, 3 tools every player should have.

End.

I have been working with the above for quite a while. I remembered on one of C.J.'s videos where he talks about loosing the feel of the cue. He suggests using just the pad of the thumb and index finger to practice with until you get the feel back. Doesn't mention anything about the cue mass.

Now when I talk about cue mass I'm talking about the mass you have in your grip hand and the cue mass behind your grip hand.

This shows up quite well when SVB is playing on a table 4.5 x 9.0 or larger. He uses an extension that increases the mass of the cue behind his hand, not necessarily the weight of the cue.

The next time your practicing set your bridge hand a couple of inches away from the cue ball and just focus on controlling the mass of the cue to strike the cue ball.

Learn to control the mass and you will learn how to control the game no matter what aiming method you use.

Okay, I'm done.

Is this like a slip stroke?

 

[BilliardsAbout]

A while back I started a thread on the way Alex Pagulayan was stroking (pushing) the cue ball. From what I saw it appeared to look like that. Then watching SVB a trillion times I noticed that he appeared to be using a punch stroke on the cue ball.
I have been watching these two and others and have wandered, what in the heck are they doing.

A year are so ago, a pocket billiard coach,friend and fisherman from New Jersey sent me a word document about controlling the mass. I'll be honest here and say I read it but didn't fully understand it's meaning.

I'm pasting this word document in the hopes that it may help others to understand what SVB, Dennis O, Alex P. are actually doing with their stroke on the cue ball.

Begin: Posted without the owners permission. If the owner should see this post and ask to have it deleted, I will.

Controlling the Mass: An Aircraft Carrier takes 4 nautical miles to stop at full throttle if you shut the power. A small boat takes a few ft in comparison.

It's the mass of the cue we are propelling. If you pull back shorter on the final delivery stroke it's easier to control the mass. Accelerate through the desired length with a smooth transition from beginning to end and clear the cue naturally. As you have seen it's a smooth stroke, but when you mention short stroke technique, automatically everyone thinks it’s a punch stroke, they couldn't be further off base.

Watch Orcullo, Corteza, Pagulayan and many others; the key is to shorten the back swing, and a smooth transition. You can have a 20 inch bridge, pull back short and deliver with required follow through, which is also fairly short, it almost looks like a push stroke, it's sort of 1/2 and 1/2, yet very smooth.

You can get a good feel for it if you shorten your bridge more than normal and practice with that for however long it takes you to get the feel. Then go back to your normal bridge and just pull back shorter and deliver.
I like the longer bridge short stroke technique as it feels loose, too short a bridge feels crammed to me.

You are more accurate and have better control of the stroke with this technique.

It's very difficult to deliver like Shane does on a consistent basis with that long delivery. It has hurt him in world championships not using the short stroke on fast tables. He loses his cue ball due to the mass and has ended up on the 50 yard line many times to cost him the match. As great as he is, and he is one fantastic player, he lacks the the short stroke,imagine when he dials that in.

Short Stroking, Upstroking, Backhand English, 3 tools every player should have.

End.

I have been working with the above for quite a while. I remembered on one of C.J.'s videos where he talks about loosing the feel of the cue. He suggests using just the pad of the thumb and index finger to practice with until you get the feel back. Doesn't mention anything about the cue mass.

Now when I talk about cue mass I'm talking about the mass you have in your grip hand and the cue mass behind your grip hand.

This shows up quite well when SVB is playing on a table 4.5 x 9.0 or larger. He uses an extension that increases the mass of the cue behind his hand, not necessarily the weight of the cue.

The next time your practicing set your bridge hand a couple of inches away from the cue ball and just focus on controlling the mass of the cue to strike the cue ball.

Learn to control the mass and you will learn how to control the game no matter what aiming method you use.

Okay, I'm done.

There are two types of short pro strokes that are used often:

1) Roll the cue ball a short distance by making a short backstroke and gently coming forward (feels like pushing the mass with a push stroke to feel like you are imparting forward roll to the cue ball) similar to a pro golf putt. This stroke is suitable for any player and is important to learn.

2) Take a short backstroke and send the cue ball a surprisingly long distance, even when the bridge hand is two feet or more away from the cue ball. This type of stroke requires a lot of practice and is not recommended for most players.