Controversial European Open Push Shot Call – The Myths Busted

[Bob Jewett]

... In 9b that would mean you could shoot away from the 6b and make any ball (including for example the 9b).

With the "shoot away" rule, as in snooker... The cue ball is on the spot. The one ball is frozen to it, as if it were the second spotted ball. The nine ball is between the cue ball and the side pocket. Just shoot the nine directly in the side. That would definitely get the rail chattering.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... The frozen rule here where i play is accepted now but 15 years ago players would do (and be expected to do) a thin cut away from the OB. many are probably still unaware of the rule

It has been allowed to shoot into the frozen ball at pool for a long, long time at pool. Maybe over 100 years. I'll have to check.

 

[skogstokig]

The died in the wool UK fans do think you should shoot away because that’s what you do at snooker and English pool. And the rule seems weird to us but it actually works in their own sport - if I’m frozen to a solid I can shoot at another solid, or even play a safety by shooting away and hitting a rail. So that rule COULD work for American 8b (it’s being used in the Ultimate Pool series). It just doesn’t work in rotation.

i have never ever heard it suggested in american pool, hence the strawman comment. would you have a video of someone shooting away from the ball? darren or someone like that

pongers comments goes to show how rare this is

 

[skogstokig]

It has been allowed to shoot into the frozen ball at pool for a long, long time at pool. Maybe over 100 years. I'll have to check.

yep, but it has not been common knowledge, and if this incident has shown anything it's that it's as rare as hen's teeth

 

[Bob Jewett]

i have never ever heard it suggested in american pool, hence the strawman comment. would you have a video of someone shooting away from the ball? darren or someone like that

pongers comments goes to show how rare this is

I have never seen anyone play "shoot away" in American pool.

At nine ball, it is very rare that you are frozen to the ball you have to hit. It is far more common at straight pool, one pocket and eight ball, where safeties often leave you frozen to balls. I can't recall the last time I saw the shot at nine ball. Usually the thin safe would be the right shot for a pro player, as Pongers mentioned. For us 400s, ride the money!

Let me qualify my first paragraph. Playing straight pool, I froze my opponent to the side of the rack. He shot straight to the rail without contacting a ball and then back to more or less the same place but not frozen. He did not claim any contact. He could have just touched the cue ball to get the same result.

 

[GideonF]

i have never ever heard it suggested in american pool, hence the strawman comment. would you have a video of someone shooting away from the ball? darren or someone like that

pongers comments goes to show how rare this is

I haven’t seen it in real American pool, in Ultimate Pool USA that is the rule (because they came out of the UK and are a hybrid rules set) and I have seen it.

It’s a bit of a straw man for us here on AZ but I’ve seen a bunch of brits saying you have to shoot away on social media in the wake of the Pongers situation.

 

[GideonF]

At nine ball, it is very rare that you are frozen to the ball you have to hit. It is far more common at straight pool, one pocket and eight ball, where safeties often leave you frozen to balls. I can't recall the last time I saw the shot at nine ball.

Corey Deuel shot one a year or two ago in a US Open WNT match refereed by Marcel. It was correctly called good. You can see it here in Dr Dave’s video at about 4:50

 

[Bob Jewett]

Corey Deuel shot one a year or two ago in a US Open WNT match refereed by Marcel. It was correctly called good. You can see it here in Dr Dave’s video at about 4:50

I wonder if he jacked up so far because he felt it is required.

 

[GideonF]

I wonder if he jacked up so far because he felt it is required.

Maybe, but also he might have been just trying to hold for the 6 in the top right corner.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Maybe, but also he might have been just trying to hold for the 6 in the top right corner.

As for Woodward, he may have been operating under DCC rules, where his shot would have been legal. And Corey may have elevated because DCC rules require it.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Karl has posted a video with Pongers now. He gives a weak apology for calling him Bonkers. ...

Pretty much all of the comments on YouTube are barbed.

 

[dr_dave]

Someone on YouTube made an excellent point about why the UK rule of shooting away from frozen balls would be bizarre in rotation games. As Dr Dave mentions, under the UK rule you have to shoot away from the frozen ball but you are deemed to have hit the ball you are frozen to. In 9b that would mean you could shoot away from the 6b and make any ball (including for example the 9b).

Also, If you are allowed to shoot away from a frozen ball with “contact” being counted, British style:

• In 9-ball, if the CB is frozen to any non-lowest-numbered ball, it would be an automatic foul to shoot away from that ball!
• In 8-ball, if you are shooting stripes and all your balls are cleared, and the CB is frozen to a solid, it would be an automatic foul. And if you have a direct look at the 8, and shoot it into a pocket, you would lose.

This type of rule seems “problematic” in pool.

 

[freds]

Also, If you are allowed to shoot away from a frozen ball with “contact” being counted, British style:

• In 9-ball, if the CB is frozen to any non-lowest-numbered ball, it would be an automatic foul to shoot away from that ball!
• In 8-ball, if you are shooting stripes and all your balls are cleared, and the CB is frozen to a solid, it would be an automatic foul. And if you have a direct look at the 8, and shoot it into a pocket, you would lose.

This type of rule seems “problematic” in pool.

At first glance, yes; but e.g., Ultimate Pool does account for these situations, pretty simple: touching only 'counts' if it's an "on" ball.
In 10 ball:

1. If the cue ball is frozen to the lowest numbered object ball on the table, the player is deemed to have made 'initial contact' in order to fulfil the requirements of a 'legal shot'.

So if frozen to a non-lowest ball it's deemed "no contact".

And for 8 ball, touching is contact only for balls in your group (or the 8, if you're on it):

(4) If the cue ball is touching an 'on' ball, the player is deemed to have
made ‘initial contact’ in order to fulfil the requirements of a ‘legal shot’.

 

[dr_dave]

At first glance, yes; but e.g., Ultimate Pool does account for these situations, pretty simple: touching only 'counts' if it's an "on" ball.
In 10 ball:

1. If the cue ball is frozen to the lowest numbered object ball on the table, the player is deemed to have made 'initial contact' in order to fulfil the requirements of a 'legal shot'.

So if frozen to a non-lowest ball it's deemed "no contact".

And for 8 ball, touching is contact only for balls in your group (or the 8, if you're on it):

(4) If the cue ball is touching an 'on' ball, the player is deemed to have
made ‘initial contact’ in order to fulfil the requirements of a ‘legal shot’.

I prefer rules that are “consistent,” like the WPA official rules of pool.

 

[GideonF]

At first glance, yes; but e.g., Ultimate Pool does account for these situations, pretty simple: touching only 'counts' if it's an "on" ball.
In 10 ball:

1. If the cue ball is frozen to the lowest numbered object ball on the table, the player is deemed to have made 'initial contact' in order to fulfil the requirements of a 'legal shot'.

So if frozen to a non-lowest ball it's deemed "no contact".

And for 8 ball, touching is contact only for balls in your group (or the 8, if you're on it):

(4) If the cue ball is touching an 'on' ball, the player is deemed to have
made ‘initial contact’ in order to fulfil the requirements of a ‘legal shot’.

So in Ultimate Pool 10b you can be frozen to the 1 and shoot the 2b in? Can you also shoot the 10b in for a win?

 

[Bob Jewett]

So in Ultimate Pool 10b you can be frozen to the 1 and shoot the 2b in? Can you also shoot the 10b in for a win?

Such a rule would be surprising but not a disaster. The most common use would probably be like some snooker safes -- shoot away from the frozen ball to freeze the cue ball on the back of a distant ball.

Does UP have a 10-ball division?

 

[freds]

Such a rule would be surprising but not a disaster. The most common use would probably be like some snooker safes -- shoot away from the frozen ball to freeze the cue ball on the back of a distant ball.

Does UP have a 10-ball division?

Yes, there is UP 10 ball, I haven't played it.

The rule (online somewhere) does imply that a direct shot on any other ball is ok if frozen to the lowest ball. But note that early 10 is not a win, so frozen-to-the-1 and make the 10 directly just spots and you keep shooting.

 

[Bob Jewett]

It has been allowed to shoot into the frozen ball at pool for a long, long time at pool. Maybe over 100 years. I'll have to check.

In the official 1890 rules, you were allowed to shoot into a frozen ball. At the same time, you were permitted to shoot away and get credit for the hit, as at snooker.

By 1925, the rule was changed and you did not get credit for a hit if you shot away. You were still allowed to shoot towards a frozen ball. I don't think the official rules have ever forbidden shooting towards a frozen ball since then.