....controversial

poolprince

Registered
some players say giving the cue a twisting motion affects the cue balland/or the motion of the object ball. What is your opinion.

Personally I think it's bull.

P.s: Am I posting too much as they say i am?
 
Actually, this is true. I'm not sure if a twisting action is the most appropriate to describe it, but it may do. I have read that Earl Strickland describes his cueing action as "swiping" the ball when more english is desired. I also find this to be the case. In fact, I worked with Stan Shuffet three weeks ago and he teaches this as well.
 
some players say giving the cue a twisting motion affects the cue balland/or the motion of the object ball. What is your opinion.

Personally I think it's bull.

P.s: Am I posting too much as they say i am?

It's no bull. It's the real deal. Whether the same results can be accomplished with some other method of cueing remains to be seen.

Jim Rempe reportedly used this cueing technique with great success as do MANY other professional players.

JoeyA
 
I guess I misunderstood ... what I initially pictured was "willing" the ball in after the stroke with more less body english.
 
some players say giving the cue a twisting motion affects the cue balland/or the motion of the object ball. What is your opinion.

Personally I think it's bull.

P.s: Am I posting too much as they say i am?

I'm skeptical and open minded, but ask them "What do it do?"
 
This has been around for a while...

I recall that Johnny Holiday wrote about this in his long-ago instruction books. He seemed to think that the technique gave him some extra-special juice on the cue ball.

I tend to agree with those who don't buy in to this idea, at least at face value. It would seem obvious that the cue ball won't be much influenced by any rotary motion of the tip. The contact point of the tip on the cue ball, in conjunction with the ball's inertia and the resistance offered by contact with the bed cloth, pretty much writes the whole story of how the ball will spin.

What MAY be significant, however, is that the cue tip is likely to deviate significantly from a straight-through path when the shooter twists his wrist. This could significantly alter the direction of the force applied to the cue ball, and might well explain the success that some have claimed for the technique, as jalapus and JoeyA describe above. This is also consistent with Earl's description of "swiping" the cue ball when applying maximum English.
 
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What MAY be significant, however, is that the cue tip is likely to deviate significantly from a straight-through path when the shooter twists his wrist. This could significantly alter the direction of the force applied to the cue ball, and might well explain the success that some have claimed for the technique, as jalapus and JoeyA describe above. This is also consistent with Earl's description of "swiping" the cue ball when applying maximum English.

I think you are on to the heart of the problem ..

for an old school just get it in the hole technique they may think it helps because they cannot get that action on the ball any other way....

it begins and ends with stroking errors.. if they have multiple errors in their mechanics to begin with and they make a good shot by twisting the wrist ... they think it will work all the time.. but in reality.. they just made a lucky shot

on the other hand a wrist twist is an unnecessary variable.. might work some day might not work others..

Q; why didn't that wrist twist work today

A; I had a bad day just couldn't see the lines...

my philosophy is to remove every variable that I can so that I can master the ones that HAVE to be mastered

I want to remove guesswork


some people think pool is all guesswork and luck they play by feel and have good days and bad days.

I have good days and bad days too..but I know my game my limitations... and I stroke the same way every time... that's the secret you need... not stroke different every time... that's not gonna get you anywhere IMO
 
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Anyone who has seen Earl from a close distance can verify that twist action takes place.
Earl also tells everybody that he does use this technique.
The cue is still forwarded in a straight line, no deviation, but from a different direction, allowing the tip to contact the cueball more sideways, thus providing different cueball action. This direction of the cue cannot be provided with the correct stance which has to remain stable at all times, that is why this technique is applied.
Anyone who has seen also live Francisco Bustamante cannot believe what his eyes tell him..
So these extreme techniques can be used only from extremely talented players, even they can't explain 100% what they are doing. I asked Earl if he considers someone as his teacher in pool and he said "Well if you grow up with players like Buddy Hall, Jim Rempe and all these great champions the images your brain gets are endless.."
So the environment you grow as a young player is important, your brain copies so many things from other players even when you don't know it.
You know Earl's personality. Check at youtube what he performed at Athens Gema Club..
Before the show, he turned to the guy who won the tournament (a world champion..) and said "You won the tournament but still they are calling me! I wish you could do on a pool table half of what I'm doing with the cueball.." The other world champion was all red in the face, but did not reply.. Although Earl was not polite, he was right..
Competitive pool is mostly other things than providing extra spin on the cueball.
So if it is not "inside" you to be able to use extreme techniques, don't..
The great Oliver Ortmann once told me: "Never try to copy another player, whoever that is, you will only get to be a bad copy of his.."
Hope that helps..
Petros
 
It's no bull. It's the real deal. Whether the same results can be accomplished with some other method of cueing remains to be seen.

Jim Rempe reportedly used this cueing technique with great success as do MANY other professional players.

JoeyA
I was informed early on about swiping to achieve max spin. I think the action is similar to what happens in tennis, handball, racketball, ping pong ....

In Denver several years ago we asked Ceulemans to show us his maximum side spin. He swiped it.

Be careful, I blame the knowledge of this to me acquiring some bad techniques, ie what I call a chicken wing stroke. Really hard to break. Thank you Mark Wilson for showing me how to get rid of it.
 
just to clear up misunderstandings..when i say twistin the cue I mean using the backhand and twist it clockwise or anti-clockwise at the butt of the cue
 
I use the twisting motion when I play banks on a few shots.. Picked this up from watching Truman Hogue and my friend Worminator. Even if it's in my mind, it seems to work for me..
 
Keep posting, we need you blood....I twist the cue, but really do not try to, on some shots my back hand will just twist, don't really know if it helps, it is just a reaction. Didn't know anyone else did it, guess it is more common then I thought. Tom
 
Not the first I've of it. I do suspect the result, if any, is a result to the wrist movement itself, not the rotating tip.

That is to say I don't think the cue ball will pick up even a little spin due to "twist", but the act of "twisting" probably changes the result overall. Overtime this can and will be seen as upside as long as its predictable and desired.

For my raggetyass game I'll pass lol.
 
just to clear up misunderstandings..when i say twistin the cue I mean using the backhand and twist it clockwise or anti-clockwise at the butt of the cue

Rotation of the tip will have no effect on what the cue ball does. Energy is transferred to the cue ball by the directional movement of the tip when it makes contact. Rotation is the result of making contact away from centerball.

Sometimes, I think we try to make this game much more complicated that it is. Energy transfer, directional and rotational is all determined by WHERE the tip makes contact, and at what speed it makes contact.

Steve
 
This is intresting I never ust to notice this twisting action untill i started wearing a watch on my stroking hand. I started to catch my self doing it but i noticed that i was not missing the ball when i would twist. Then i started to really notice it on certain shots and still pocketing balls and the balls would go in clean and crisp and not hitting the jaw of the pocket before dropping.




I never botherd to correct it since it has not hurt my game ill have to pay attention to this thread and see what comes it since its something i want to find out about more.
 
Neither "twisting" (turning the cue like a screwdriver) nor "swiping" (swooping your stroke/tip sideways) do anything that you can't do more accurately and reliably with a perfectly straight, non-twisting stroke. They both simply cause the tip to strike the CB at a different place and from a slightly different direction, both of which can be accomplished by simply lining up that way in the first place and stroking straight - a much more accurate and reliable technique.

Twisting and swooping are bad techniques used by players who may be very experienced and skilled but don't know that they're creating unnecessary complications.

pj
chgo
 
JoeyA's Academic Justice

I recall that Johnny Holiday wrote about this in his long-ago instruction books. He seemed to think that the technique gave him some extra-special juice on the cue ball.

I tend to agree with those who don't buy in to this idea, at least at face value. It would seem obvious that the cue ball won't be much influenced by any rotary motion of the tip. The contact point of the tip on the cue ball, in conjunction with the ball's inertia and the resistance offered by contact with the bed cloth, pretty much writes the whole story of how the ball will spin.

What MAY be significant, however, is that the cue tip is likely to deviate significantly from a straight-through path when the shooter twists his wrist. This could significantly alter the direction of the force applied to the cue ball, and might well explain the success that some have claimed for the technique, as jalapus and JoeyA describe above. This is also consistent with Earl's description of "swiping" the cue ball when applying maximum English.

I think that your analysis is right on the money.

I believe that the mere attempt to do certain things, (like accelerating the cue through the cue ball, gripping the cue stick tightly upon impact and yes, twisting the cue stick,)can ALL accomplish something positive for some people that is not otherwise possible for them.

It doesn't matter to me that the cue ball is genuinely only influenced only by a few critical items. There are certain shots that some people can only make if they use certain "techniques". Whether or not that is a deficiency of theirs or a superior capability, that do, does not matter. What matters is whether or not the ball goes in the hole.

The physics guys will tell you that you can't accelerate the cue stick through the cue ball and they're right as they are about most things of the physics nature.

Even though I love to read the physics stuff and view the slow-motion videos to see what is actually happening to the balls, if I thought that using telekinesis would help me play better position, I would be all over it. :D

The thing that happens on this forum is that the physics guys will say, "No, you're wrong, that isn't possible and that doesn't happen or that has no bearing on the shot or similar things that negate the theory or technique". While they may be right about all of these things, they do a disservice to the billiard community and themselves if they do not add the caveat of "However, the attempt to do this can influence the outcome of the shot". A further academic explanation of why the particular technique seems to work for some players would be akin to something I call JoeyA's Academic Justice.

By itself, by saying that something doesn't work or that it doesn't do what some people thinks it does and having the technical data to back that up isn't just to anyone, the academic community or the billiard community.

Because the academic community in pocket billiards is relatively small, these guys take a lot of heat wherever they go but not necessarily for what they know but what they don't add.

By the same token, the billiard community with some of the their almost mystical techniques, the use of mirages, lights, rotating centers, aiming systems and even lucky clothing take heat for their perspective because it doesn't fit within the confines of academia.

Nevertheless, despite the fact that some of these methods have not been fully explained or demonstrated, players continue to put balls in the hole using these unorthodox but apparently effective methods.

JoeyA
 
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