I am also looking for gun drills at the Sterling website. Which type should I get? Solid Carbide Flute? Standard Single Flute? etc? Please enlighten me.
Thanks,
Chris
Thanks,
Chris
Coring, tolerances?
- Thread starter Kim Bye
- Start date
Just tell them it's for pool cues.
You gonna get one that's tool post mounted or chucked?
I'm coring now. I'm at .0045 clearance. Not bad. :thumbup:
Y'all must just have a whole bunch of wood that you have no faith in.
If that's the case, why'd you buy the wood in the first place ?
Are you of the assumption that coring will improve the harmonics of the wood ?
You do realize that's the compromise you're making, don't you ?
You'd be hard-pressed to convince me that you've improved the resonance of BRW
by stuffing a mystery-wood rod thru the center of it, surround by Gorilla glue.
OK, maybe purity of resonance doesn't matter to you. I get that. Wouldn't veneer be cheaper ?
Luthiers laminate for the purpose of fine-tuning the resonance. Cue-makers don't have a clue.
CMs want the pretty but unwittingly destroy the purity of resonance their chosen wood would
otherwise provide. Like I said, go with veneer and you'll save yourselves time and money.
Let's talk about the buying public. They've fallen for the latest new/old fad as well.
They don't care about resonance. They now get to use the latest buzz-words : "It's cored".
Well, yes it is. Now what does that mean to you Mr. Buyer ? I'd love to hear your thoughts.
You might have guessed by now that I'm not a fan of coring unnecessarily.
That would suggest that at some rare times, coring is necessary. IE, I'd core Big Leaf Maple.
Coring has been around forever but today it's hot again. It's the latest fad in building.
Those that core as a matter of routine have joined the club, they are moving the bar.
In which direction is a subject for debate.
And the debate will continue because how else are you going to learn ?
This is addressed to no one in particular but rather to all members of the coring-crusade.
Yours Truly, KJ
If that's the case, why'd you buy the wood in the first place ?
Are you of the assumption that coring will improve the harmonics of the wood ?
You do realize that's the compromise you're making, don't you ?
You'd be hard-pressed to convince me that you've improved the resonance of BRW
by stuffing a mystery-wood rod thru the center of it, surround by Gorilla glue.
OK, maybe purity of resonance doesn't matter to you. I get that. Wouldn't veneer be cheaper ?
Luthiers laminate for the purpose of fine-tuning the resonance. Cue-makers don't have a clue.
CMs want the pretty but unwittingly destroy the purity of resonance their chosen wood would
otherwise provide. Like I said, go with veneer and you'll save yourselves time and money.
Let's talk about the buying public. They've fallen for the latest new/old fad as well.
They don't care about resonance. They now get to use the latest buzz-words : "It's cored".
Well, yes it is. Now what does that mean to you Mr. Buyer ? I'd love to hear your thoughts.
You might have guessed by now that I'm not a fan of coring unnecessarily.
That would suggest that at some rare times, coring is necessary. IE, I'd core Big Leaf Maple.
Coring has been around forever but today it's hot again. It's the latest fad in building.
Those that core as a matter of routine have joined the club, they are moving the bar.
In which direction is a subject for debate.
And the debate will continue because how else are you going to learn ?
This is addressed to no one in particular but rather to all members of the coring-crusade.
Yours Truly, KJ
Coring is just one of many ways to make a cue, I never said it was the only way and I agree that in many cases coring is not necessary.
For me this is a way to test different construction techniques. And right now I`m looking to get a good grasp on coring and constructing cues that way.
I came to the realization that it`s the only way to understand how wood types and construction methods influences the feel of a cue.
For me this is a way to test different construction techniques. And right now I`m looking to get a good grasp on coring and constructing cues that way.
I came to the realization that it`s the only way to understand how wood types and construction methods influences the feel of a cue.
Great post, you and I think alike, have you built a few Guitars as well? I did 15 years ago, I could go plug one in right now.
Your first comment on the faith in wood, that impressed me. My customers love the hit of a very solid Forearm, I bet your customers love the hit you create.
Faith in wood, hmm, if we can take a 30" shaft and expect it to stay straight, why can't we expect the same from a Forearm? A Handle? Maybe it's the 3" butt sleeve.
The most accurate holes are drilled and then bored to perfection, slip fit the core.
I happen to build guitars, and my experience has been that if the wood wants to move, it's a gonna move...and if you constrain it, maybe just crack. Not sure how that applies to cues, other than agree with KJ that Big Leaf maple (i.e. soft maple) has the best figure but never really stops squirming around. Guitar builders don't generally use it for necks. Violin family builders get away with it because it's a short, stubby neck paired with a massive ebony fingerboard.
Since I don't really build guitars anymore, I have a lot of wood sitting around doing nothing, including some large planks of pattern grade Honduran Mahogany. I wish it were heavier. I have basic neck blanks I've made sitting in my shop that are several years old, and they're as straight today as the day I made them. Nice stuff.
Thanks for the reply, please allow me to clarify. I have only built a few electric guitars where I put a Fender neck on, they stayed in tune and played fine. I prefer my Gibson LP with a set neck, it's the flame top model.
I could write a couple of paragraphs to answer the last few post. But I'll keep it real simple.
I core because I feel it's a better construction method for consistency, and overall stability. It does not speed up my time. End of story.
I core because I feel it's a better construction method for consistency, and overall stability. It does not speed up my time. End of story.
Almost forgot. ALMOST.
For you boys with a clearance of 7 plus thou. You are missing something. I'm not judging or condemning cause I'm not trying to disrespect anyone. But you've missed some part of the overall equation of the task.
For you boys with a clearance of 7 plus thou. You are missing something. I'm not judging or condemning cause I'm not trying to disrespect anyone. But you've missed some part of the overall equation of the task.
JC
Coos Cues
I may be mistaken but I think Chris is talking about his butts below the A joint and not forearms with this size dowel and core hole.
May I inquire why you use a .700 at the forearm and in what ways it helps the cue as opposed to .625? Does it allow you to use less stable wood as the outer veneer or hold such wood bette? Better hit? Better collar threading?
Thanks,
JC
.625 is a bad idea if you thread your collars.
You'd be threading air on tubes with 5/8 hole.:grin:
Most of the time the time the .700" hole is just the starter hole for me these days.
I rebore the forearm sleeve to .725" 6 inches down.
Then .825" some 5+" from the bottom.
That way I can use a .820"-.720" stepped core.
That allows for a .750" tenon down the handle plus some threads .
No metal studs needed.
I keep the coring dowel length close to 15".
KJ touched on resonance. If you use low resonant coring dowels, then the hit will be affected.
The cue is as good as the components and the construction.
I believe more world titles and major titles have been won on cored cues the last 5 years.
Last edited:
To core or not to core..........
That is not what the question is..................but, as long as I'm here......
Coring certainly has it's place in modern day cue construction. That is a fact. Does every wood out there need to be cored? That's up to the individual builder on what they believe to be their best option. Highly debatable subject, no doubt. My answer to the OP's question on coring tolerances has already been addressed and is what I feel the best for my options also. Core slides in the bore "easily" but will not fall out when turned on it's end before the gluing operation. That's really all I care about. I don't measure and fit according to measured size because every wood I bore out will bore differently. Ebony vs Maple...ebony vs coco...my findings have been they're all different according wood hardness on the final bore size. Now, I could get them all the exact same size if I wanted by doing 2 or 3 free passes with the bar set at a specific number on the dial. But who has time for all that nonsense?
But wait you say..........how can that be when I'm using the exact same size coring drill on all these holes on the different woods?
For my purposes only............YMMV
I use a .650 drill to go through both forearms and handles then BORE the hole the size I prefer for the core. This may vary per cue depending on the woods used and final weight to be desired. Possibly the first question to pop into your head is WHY would I do this painstaking operation when there are so many different size drills available to me?
Reason number one..........I don't like the burnished and polished bore that a gun drill leaves behind in the wood. IMO this is not an idea gluing surface for something as critical as the bore/core wood. By using a boring bar the surface is roughed and the pores of the wood are opened to better accept the glue I use. The core wood is also roughed with a 220 or 240 grit before applying the glue.
As long as I'm on the subject I may as well pass you my opinion on the glue also.
Poly glues have no place in ANY part of the cue construction. I know, I know....many well known and respected builders (or many not so well known and not very respected builders) may or may not use the stuff and that certainly is their prerogative. But IF you should decide to fall down that rabbit hole I highly suggest you do all of your adhesion testing in a variety of environments and on a variety of different woods and materials.
I'll only say this about it.....in every test I did with poly type glues I found that it was a "surface bond" only. It does not soak into the woods like an epoxy bond will creating a much stronger and longer lasting bond between the two substrates. If you're worried about epoxy soaking in and leaving "voids" that can create a noise or a rattle down the road you are not doing the process correctly and/or possibly using the wrong type of epoxy. So, do your tests and decide what you want your cue building legacy to include. Solid, great playing cues that have stood the test of time or someone who just was out for the $ and didn't care after they were gone what happens to any of the cues they built.
I will say this about the cues I've built using a proper coring technique....they all seem to be better in stability and far less to no movement over the course of the building cycle compared to cues before my coring years. This only leads me to believe that once in the field they have a much higher chance of surviving the riggers of the game according to the pool players hand book. Just sayin............
IMO
That is not what the question is..................but, as long as I'm here......
Coring certainly has it's place in modern day cue construction. That is a fact. Does every wood out there need to be cored? That's up to the individual builder on what they believe to be their best option. Highly debatable subject, no doubt. My answer to the OP's question on coring tolerances has already been addressed and is what I feel the best for my options also. Core slides in the bore "easily" but will not fall out when turned on it's end before the gluing operation. That's really all I care about. I don't measure and fit according to measured size because every wood I bore out will bore differently. Ebony vs Maple...ebony vs coco...my findings have been they're all different according wood hardness on the final bore size. Now, I could get them all the exact same size if I wanted by doing 2 or 3 free passes with the bar set at a specific number on the dial. But who has time for all that nonsense?
But wait you say..........how can that be when I'm using the exact same size coring drill on all these holes on the different woods?
For my purposes only............YMMV
I use a .650 drill to go through both forearms and handles then BORE the hole the size I prefer for the core. This may vary per cue depending on the woods used and final weight to be desired. Possibly the first question to pop into your head is WHY would I do this painstaking operation when there are so many different size drills available to me?
Reason number one..........I don't like the burnished and polished bore that a gun drill leaves behind in the wood. IMO this is not an idea gluing surface for something as critical as the bore/core wood. By using a boring bar the surface is roughed and the pores of the wood are opened to better accept the glue I use. The core wood is also roughed with a 220 or 240 grit before applying the glue.
As long as I'm on the subject I may as well pass you my opinion on the glue also.
Poly glues have no place in ANY part of the cue construction. I know, I know....many well known and respected builders (or many not so well known and not very respected builders) may or may not use the stuff and that certainly is their prerogative. But IF you should decide to fall down that rabbit hole I highly suggest you do all of your adhesion testing in a variety of environments and on a variety of different woods and materials.
I'll only say this about it.....in every test I did with poly type glues I found that it was a "surface bond" only. It does not soak into the woods like an epoxy bond will creating a much stronger and longer lasting bond between the two substrates. If you're worried about epoxy soaking in and leaving "voids" that can create a noise or a rattle down the road you are not doing the process correctly and/or possibly using the wrong type of epoxy. So, do your tests and decide what you want your cue building legacy to include. Solid, great playing cues that have stood the test of time or someone who just was out for the $ and didn't care after they were gone what happens to any of the cues they built.
I will say this about the cues I've built using a proper coring technique....they all seem to be better in stability and far less to no movement over the course of the building cycle compared to cues before my coring years. This only leads me to believe that once in the field they have a much higher chance of surviving the riggers of the game according to the pool players hand book. Just sayin............
IMO
Last edited:
I just want to thank everyone who replies.
It`s great to hear about different philosophies and techniques about coring.
I wound up ordering two gun drills .758" x 20" and .650" x 18" I also have long boring bars, if I want to experiment with tapered cores or other diameters.
I have tried Gorialla glue and West epoxy and both seems to work fine, but it seems that Gorialla glue just stays on the surface of the wood and does not really bond with the wood itself.
I think West 105 is easier to work with, it`s really thin and dries slower than Goriall glue does, giving me more time to coat the surfaces properly.
I put two horizontal glue reliefs in my dowels and a glue relief every inch along the dowel.
It`s great to hear about different philosophies and techniques about coring.
I wound up ordering two gun drills .758" x 20" and .650" x 18" I also have long boring bars, if I want to experiment with tapered cores or other diameters.
I have tried Gorialla glue and West epoxy and both seems to work fine, but it seems that Gorialla glue just stays on the surface of the wood and does not really bond with the wood itself.
I think West 105 is easier to work with, it`s really thin and dries slower than Goriall glue does, giving me more time to coat the surfaces properly.
I put two horizontal glue reliefs in my dowels and a glue relief every inch along the dowel.
Hopefully, that is the cutting depth plus the extra length needed to hold it, as every gundrill usually has the cutting flute length, then about 4" of a combo of solid body at the dia. and then the shank, which is usually 1 inch dia. and, depending if it's a MT taper or straight shank, with an air connection. I now always go for about 8 inches longer what I need for depth, as you have to overcome the width of the carriage which will be inline and in the way, plus what's chucked up in the chuck of the tailstock and still maintain a passage way for the chips to be blown out.
You want to still see the V groove in the drill body when you breakout on the other end, so chips can get out, otherwise, you bury it past that point, it can bind up as the chips will fill up the voids, then have no where to go.
Dave
Yes .758" drill is 24" OAL.
The .650" is 20" OAL.
This should give me extra length to easily break through, even on slightly longer pieces than normal.
tolerances
Coring techniques seem to fall into 2 distinct camps:
1. Those who use West System epoxies and strive for tight tolerances - .002/.003" per side as West recommends.
2. Those who use poly glues that fill the excessive clearances - .010" plus - needed for assembly.
This VIDEO shows how I used to do my forearm cores. Works very well with West System epoxies. The only thing I do differently now is I turn & groove the core on my CNC machine.
Although I've successfully used poly glues in this application, I agree with those who like an epoxy that will soak into the wood, creating a bond that is more than "skin deep".
Coring techniques seem to fall into 2 distinct camps:
1. Those who use West System epoxies and strive for tight tolerances - .002/.003" per side as West recommends.
2. Those who use poly glues that fill the excessive clearances - .010" plus - needed for assembly.
This VIDEO shows how I used to do my forearm cores. Works very well with West System epoxies. The only thing I do differently now is I turn & groove the core on my CNC machine.
Although I've successfully used poly glues in this application, I agree with those who like an epoxy that will soak into the wood, creating a bond that is more than "skin deep".
There you go video's bring everything to light!
Seriously guys. Take the time and learn about your tolerances and more importantly the different glues / epoxies.
Seriously guys. Take the time and learn about your tolerances and more importantly the different glues / epoxies.