Cornhole vs Pool
- Thread starter FeelDaShot
- Start date
Repeat after me: Though many live in denial over this point, "there is almost no relationship between pro and amateur pool."
The amateurs have almost no interest in pro pool and the pro players have even less interest in amateur pool. I recall back in the Riviera days of the BCA Nationals, with 10,000 amateurs and 64 male and 64 female pros competing a couple of hundred feet away from them. You very rarely saw pros in the amateur tournament room, even after they were eliminated, a major lost opportunity for them to connect with amateur pool. Similarly, awfully few of the 10,000 amateurs chose to check out the pro events.
It's not getting better, by the way. It's getting worse. The pros aren't even interested in playing the same games the amateurs play. I've often known some amateurs to be turned off by "money ball doesn't count on the break." I sat next to an amateur during a "call shot, call safe" match in the pro event at Super Billiards Expo and we watched the same player shoot the money ball four times in a row. They looked at me and asked "what game are they playing?" It sure wasn't rotation pool the way they played it. Within a few minutes, they just walked out.
Now, the just completed WPA 10-ball, now an American event, used a rule I'd never seen used before, and once again, they were successful in making the game less recognizable to potential amateur fans. The rule was called "10 ball last" and meant that if the ten were pocketed out of order, it would spot and the shooter would keep shooting.
I'm not suggesting that the case for these rule changes can't be made, but I am suggesting that the perpetual willingness of the pro ranks to play a game unrecognizable to the amateurs does not sit well with me, and it has certainly contributed to increased fan disenfranchisement.
Pro pool is not concerned in the least with the amateur ranks and, for that reason, there's no reason to expect the amateurs to finance the livelihood of a pro pool world that can't make financial ends meet.
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This has already been done. The APA was the key sponsor of the men's Professional Billiard Tour years ago as well as an important sponsor of the Women's Professional Billiards Association. The BCA put on a great show once a year in a high prize fund event called the BCA Open, coinciding ith BCA National 8 and 9 ball championship, that had both a men's and a women's division. Each reduced its commitment to pro pool, and with sound justification --- specifically, because they didn't feel they were getting sufficient bang for their buck. They didn't see pro pool as a charity they should feel obligated to support, but as a possible avenue by which they could connect with the more mainstream world of amateur pool, a goal sometimes but not often enough achieved.
It is ultimately pro pool's responsibility to make itself a product worthy of investment dollars. The "not very image conscious" and "not very concerned about amateur players" pros of today have done little to make the pro pool product more worthy of investment dollars, and for this reason, no out-of-industry sponsor can be lured.
Finally, why in the world would proprietors of amateur pool see pro pool as a deserving charity case?
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And by a country mile. He just wants to keep repeating the same "league players need to provide stepping stone" without listening to the reality of it.
League players do NOT want to finance the pro's. Why should working folks want to send folks money to play pool ? Why do they want to find some type of process to move up the ranks to "pro".. 90% of amateurs do not have delusions they are pro material. the other 10% don't want to take the pay cut
Pro and Amateur
I really think a synergy with pro and amateur pool could be set up. The amateurs would contribute to the pro purses. In return the pro's would give maybe 100 hours a season to instruction and other activities involving the amateurs.
The pro's, or enough to derail anything that gets started, seem to have a sense of entitlement. They should get all the money and outside venues, pool rooms, promoters, organizers, tournament directors, all of the people that make things happen, should do it for free and pay for the privilege of having pro pool players come play. Not the way it works for any successful activity. Everyone has to benefit for something to work.
The pro's give of their expertise, the amateurs give of their money. In addition to the financial benefits the amateurs come to know the pro's and the amateurs are much less likely to begrudge a percentage of their fees going to a pro tour.
All it would take for a successful pro tour is one dollar a week of APA fees going to a tour as an example. In return maybe once a month several pro players put on a clinic at the local pool hall. While the organization would pay expenses, the pro's would be obligated to perform the hundred hours of service as a requirement of their tour membership.
Details could be worked out, have to figure actual hours and such but the point is that the pro-am relationship would have to be a two way street. Some pro-am pairs events wouldn't be a bad idea either. Many things might be possible if all benefited.
Hu
I really think a synergy with pro and amateur pool could be set up. The amateurs would contribute to the pro purses. In return the pro's would give maybe 100 hours a season to instruction and other activities involving the amateurs.
The pro's, or enough to derail anything that gets started, seem to have a sense of entitlement. They should get all the money and outside venues, pool rooms, promoters, organizers, tournament directors, all of the people that make things happen, should do it for free and pay for the privilege of having pro pool players come play. Not the way it works for any successful activity. Everyone has to benefit for something to work.
The pro's give of their expertise, the amateurs give of their money. In addition to the financial benefits the amateurs come to know the pro's and the amateurs are much less likely to begrudge a percentage of their fees going to a pro tour.
All it would take for a successful pro tour is one dollar a week of APA fees going to a tour as an example. In return maybe once a month several pro players put on a clinic at the local pool hall. While the organization would pay expenses, the pro's would be obligated to perform the hundred hours of service as a requirement of their tour membership.
Details could be worked out, have to figure actual hours and such but the point is that the pro-am relationship would have to be a two way street. Some pro-am pairs events wouldn't be a bad idea either. Many things might be possible if all benefited.
Hu
I don't know, it just seems like it works the other way around in any currently successful sport.
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Maybe you're right, but ultimately the question that must be asked is whether the APA is willing to forego $1 per week per player for this assurance of pro participation in the strengthening and advocacy of their league product.
As you properly note, though, the sense of entitlement at pro level is what is standing in the way. To be fair to the pros in America, though, there is no pro organization to formulate and help crystallize a vision for the future of pro pool in America.
I do, on the whole, agree with you that there can be synergies between the pro and amateur ranks, but it requires a vision that few subscribe to at present and a plan that has yet to be developed.
Finally, I think having pro-ams is a great idea. They have this at Super Billiards Expo and it is always a big hit. A pro-am night once per season in league play would do a lot more, though, to introduce the league players to the pros in a way that might make them care about pro pool.
It’s hard to say without looking at financials, but I seriously believe this can be accomplished without the amateurs having to spend any extra money or lose out on prize funds. The league (i.e. APA) would be the ones funding the pros.
I know, I know...why should they have to donate to the pros?? They aren’t donating. They are investing in the sport. By doing this they get a lot in return:
1. Marketing of their leagues and brand on the world stage
2. Growth of the sport
3. Monopolization of the market
4. Revenue from pro events
5. Growth of the pool economy
I’m sure there are more benefits I’m overlooking but you get the point.
And if they need to charge an extra $5 a year from each player or whatever to make ends meet they can easily do that too. I’m sure there would be resistance at first but it’s not like many people are going to quit pool over a few bucks a year. And people that start playing pool after if it’s already in effect won’t even know the difference.
I know, I know...why should they have to donate to the pros?? They aren’t donating. They are investing in the sport. By doing this they get a lot in return:
1. Marketing of their leagues and brand on the world stage
2. Growth of the sport
3. Monopolization of the market
4. Revenue from pro events
5. Growth of the pool economy
I’m sure there are more benefits I’m overlooking but you get the point.
And if they need to charge an extra $5 a year from each player or whatever to make ends meet they can easily do that too. I’m sure there would be resistance at first but it’s not like many people are going to quit pool over a few bucks a year. And people that start playing pool after if it’s already in effect won’t even know the difference.
I'd have to say I don't get the point.
APA, a truly great force in pool, has been down this road before, and they cut back their investment in pro pool because they didn't feel they were getting enough bang for their buck. What exactly is it that has changed that would make a return to that business approach worthwhile now?
As for your second point, if APA/league proprietors could charge a little more and everyone would pay it, I'd say that means the product is underpriced, but if you're right and they could raise the price, they should. My guess is that they already know how to price their league product to maximize revenue. If you're right, however, the incremental revenue would, by every bit of logic, belong to them. If they were to choose to direct such revenue toward pro pool, IT IS a donation, a charitable act.
Finally, your supposition that it is at the pro level where growth of the pool industry is driven, I'd have to say that I strongly disagree.
All that said, I'd prefer it if you're right and I'm wrong.
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You make a good point about the optimum price. Regardless, this seems like the only option to me. An option I would expect anyone to make who was more concerned with growing the sport than making money.
There’s nothing wrong with making money though. I can’t blame them for that at all. I just know they aren’t interested in growing the sport.
If the sport was ever to make big growth they would need to be on board.
HU, have you played in leagues lately. The league players are not going to give money to the pro's. End of story. Now, if the APA wants to donate their profits to the pro ranks, that is their choice, but as SJM pointed out, that was tried already and nothing much came out of it.
You can't expect to grow pro pool from the league players. League players are pool right now. Without them, the sport dies. Who buys cues? Who buys tables? etc. etc. They put money in pool right now.
I'd be more interested in the manufacturers and others folks who sell accessories (myself included) to donate to some great marketing that we all benefit from. If folks don't want to play, it won't matter how much the pro's win in a tourney. We don't have folks that want to play pool, thus, we need more people involved in the game. It can't only be league players. I mean, folks watch hockey that never ice skated, ever
Some targeted social media marketing. Hooking up with the popular U-tubers and paying them to play pool to market pool for us. It won't look like an add, just subliminal marketing doing what it does best. Hey, all the cool kids are playing pool.
What about sponsoring a few top pro video gamers, showing them when they like to relax at home with their dogs while shooting pool. How cool would that be?
A couple younger Hollywood types posting on Instagram playing pool. How about a NASCAR driver or two playing pool a day after a big race?
Pool is fun, but until you draw them in, those folks will never know it.
With any luck, someday the forum will be nothing but threads titled:
- I have to reserve tables 6 months in advance at Joes Bar & Grille
- Is $4000 a good price for a 1986 McDermott?
- Why are used Gold Crowns $8500 suddenly
- What's the lead time for glue?, I was quoted minimum 6 months.
- Rolex just signed Florian as a brand ambassador
I think our emphasis should be on Amateur Pool Players. When the time comes that Big Tournaments need the "Icing on the Cake", we can turn to the Pros, for their additives.
The many need to serve the many, not the few.
We are in a world of HiTech, that means our "Little Stage" can be broadcast to the Big Stage & entertain millions of people, not just the 25, sweating a match in our Pool Room. Today, we have many types of Pool Instructions being viewed on YouTube, tomorrow we can have Top Drawer , highly qualified instructors doing that, on every facet of "The Game", plus show any & all matches on the big wide web... Just a Thought...
The many need to serve the many, not the few.
We are in a world of HiTech, that means our "Little Stage" can be broadcast to the Big Stage & entertain millions of people, not just the 25, sweating a match in our Pool Room. Today, we have many types of Pool Instructions being viewed on YouTube, tomorrow we can have Top Drawer , highly qualified instructors doing that, on every facet of "The Game", plus show any & all matches on the big wide web... Just a Thought...
Someday in the forum continued...
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Mark often commented on it during the TAR days. I haven't seen anything specific on the site either although they said they had a way to fund not only themselves (as LOs) but also a large event or a tour for the Pros. JCIN also said it was a viable plan.
Contact Ozzy via the website and see what kind of a response you get.
I posted this idea a couple of years ago, but pool could take off with the masses, but everything has to come together with perfect timing and a lot of luck...just like MMA. I have been a huge MMA fan since 1994. I would order the early PPV's and my friends would come and watch, but never got personally invested in it. Fast forward 20 years and the UFC is a billion dollar company with hundreds of fighters under contract, an ESPN deal, and international stars making millions.
What made a fledgling fight company into a billion dollar business? An obscure cable channel called spike tv and a reality based show called the ultimate fighter. UFC President Dana White has said this may times himself.
Now imagine this same scenario applied to pool.
Take US players ranked 20-40 Fargo rate, recruit Earl and say Johnny Archer as coaches, or maybe Dennis Hatch for potential conflict, and have them schoolyard pick a team of 10.
Put the 20 players in a vegas mansion with several pool tables and unlimited alcohol. Of course you would have producers behind the scenes driving the drama and conflict... a drunken fistfight every couple of weeks would work wonders for ratings.
Each week you have training montages of each coach working with their players and the players would of course get camera time to tell life stories and their struggles trying to make it as pool players. At the end of each episode you have an elimination match between the two teams. Of course creative editing would be required as you couldn't show an entire match. Just the remarkable shots and crazy misses.
When it is down to the Semifinals, piggyback the matches with a big pro tourney such as mosconi cup. Boom.
UFC just happened to strike gold with characters such as Chris Leben and Diego Sanchez and then a final fight for the ages with Forrest Griffin and Stephan Bonner. Maybe pool could do the same.
What made a fledgling fight company into a billion dollar business? An obscure cable channel called spike tv and a reality based show called the ultimate fighter. UFC President Dana White has said this may times himself.
Now imagine this same scenario applied to pool.
Take US players ranked 20-40 Fargo rate, recruit Earl and say Johnny Archer as coaches, or maybe Dennis Hatch for potential conflict, and have them schoolyard pick a team of 10.
Put the 20 players in a vegas mansion with several pool tables and unlimited alcohol. Of course you would have producers behind the scenes driving the drama and conflict... a drunken fistfight every couple of weeks would work wonders for ratings.
Each week you have training montages of each coach working with their players and the players would of course get camera time to tell life stories and their struggles trying to make it as pool players. At the end of each episode you have an elimination match between the two teams. Of course creative editing would be required as you couldn't show an entire match. Just the remarkable shots and crazy misses.
When it is down to the Semifinals, piggyback the matches with a big pro tourney such as mosconi cup. Boom.
UFC just happened to strike gold with characters such as Chris Leben and Diego Sanchez and then a final fight for the ages with Forrest Griffin and Stephan Bonner. Maybe pool could do the same.
Hmm. I never thought about that since I always hated reality TV but I have to admit it sounds good. I’ve always thought that big $$, girls, and badassing is what pool needed to grow and become popular with the young driven crowd. I doubt it will ever be mainstream middle class+ like tennis or golf so why not get the test fueled youngsters thinking it’s cool.
I think all of these companies have something that might work in or for Pool. Their business models must have some facet, that is cause for their success.
I'm not much of fan for anything, but Pool N Billiards, Country Music & Custom Hot Rods & Cars... the rest doesn't exist for me....
I'm not much of fan for anything, but Pool N Billiards, Country Music & Custom Hot Rods & Cars... the rest doesn't exist for me....
A level of organization slightly above that found at most any roadside fruit stand.
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This is exactly the formula that MMA found success with. MMA will never compete with boxing as far as main stream acceptance, prize money, etc. But, they found their niche and it has paid off big time.